This reminds me a bit of something I read about why dictatorships, and corruption, are so common world-wide. I forgot the name but there was a book on it.
The basic idea was that when essential services are lacking and not guaranteed for everyone, such as healthcare and education you must sacrifice your integrity in order to secure those for your loved ones.
So, sure, behind all this can be plain crab-mentality, racism and so on. But I also imagine a significant factor can be attributed to fear of losing something seen as essential and not guaranteed.
a significant factor can be attributed to fear of losing something seen as essential and not guaranteed.
This is a lie told to us, as zephr_c alludes to, by those manipulating society for their own gain.
The reality is that there is enough food produced globally to feed 10 billion people, we only don’t because it isn’t profitable.
That isn’t to say the fear of being left without, under our current system, isn’t a very real one, it is, and I’m subject to it myself as I’m sure you are, my point is that we need to be aware (and make others aware) of who is telling us there isn’t enough (and putting our lives at risk for money by exploiting us more and more as well as withholding food and housing) and why, rather than just accept it as an inevitable reality, because it isn’t.
I’m from the Netherlands and I can’t say that I’m familiar with these issues personally.
Then you’re not looking hard enough (or at all, if at this point you still think your country is somehow untouched by capitalism, which it isn’t)
Also how do you want to solve hunger in an area where warlords have power? It isn’t like we can do much about it from here.
You’re pointing at a tiny (and very random) symptom of the problem (one that in many if not all cases is created directly by and for capitalists and often the governments they own) and expecting an effective localised solution, but the problem is systemic, and the only way to fix a systemic problem is with systemic solutions - abolish capitalism and build a society that doesn’t need exploitation oppression and massive disparity just to exist.
Do yourself a favour, read up on ant capitalism, on socialism, on anarchism. Look in to your local community and how people in it are struggling (and they are), and how you can help, that’s probably the best thing you can do on a personal level.
Sure I do see some issues. For example we don’t pay stay at home parents, even though it is a lot of work. But this is essentially the shift of family support to state support and it takes time.
Have you ever been to the Netherlands? BTW you sound kind of condescending and I don’t think you’ll get many people for your cause like that.
I’m not here to coddle your feelings or tell you what you want to hear because what you don’t want to hear makes you too uncomfortable.
At the end of the day you’ll either try to be better or not, my tone is just an excuse for you to weasel out of actually doing even the bare minimum like trying to educate yourself.
You might be new to this, but I’m not, it’s the exact same bullshit excuses and derailing each time (you’ve done it again with the stay at home parents, trying to shift focus away from the actual problem)
And yes, I have been to the Netherlands, not that it matters one bit, capitalism is capitalism, and you guys still having the relatively (for obviously privileged people like you, anyway) easy to swallow mild version doesn’t mean it isn’t already decaying, and that the shit the rest of us (in Europe, by the way, I get the feeling you incorrectly presumed I’m American from your pointless and derailing question) are already dealing with isn’t already cooking for you (back to the point I made about educating yourself? If I can find one, two, three in 2 seconds of searching, so can you.)
Get your head out of your ass and if you genuinely care, go do something about it, I’m done spoon feeding your lazy ass, you’re head is taking up too much space for anything to actually sink in.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I understand that you feel strongly about this, and I genuinely want to understand better. Sometimes, a more approachable tone can help bridge gaps and make it easier for others to engage in meaningful dialogue. Strong approaches might make some folks hesitant to join the conversation. I’m here to learn and discuss, so let’s keep things open. Appreciate the sources you provided!
I feel we started off on the wrong foot. Just like you, I’d also like to improve the system we live in. For example I understand that everyone in the Netherlands is privileged, including me, and I’d like for more people in the world to be able to enjoy this quality of life.
Capitalism might not necessarily be the best approach. For example I value the insights from Noam Chomsky about how state funded research provides essentially all technological innovations. Personally I think these innovations are what make our world better over time. I dislike that our knowledge isn’t freely shared with the rest of the world.
I’ll be honest, I don’t have the will nor the energy to talk you through anti-capitalism from the basics, it’s clear you’re not willing to actually make any effort, so neither am I.
I will just leave you with two things that stick out from this last reply:
Educate yourself on tone policing and stop doing it, it’s not only derailing to the conversation and providing you an excuse to ignore everything being said to you and to do fuck all, it’s also just plain rude and extremely condescending - don’t pretend to want to learn from someone (worse - naturally expect them to educate you) and than focus first and foremost (and almost entirely) on how they’re doing it (especially from your ignorant starting point, where you clearly have no idea about even the basics of the topic, let alone what kinds of oppressions people less privileged than you suffer daily, and just how much of an impact reality has on our lives. You being completely clueless and deliberately detached doesn’t mean you’re more “cool calm and collected” it just shows you lack any sort of passion, let alone relevant lived experience).
The second point I want to address is:
For example I understand that everyone in the Netherlands is privileged, including me
On a global scale, yes, people living in the Netherlands are, on average some of the most privileged, on a local scale however, absolutely not everyone in your country has the same privileges as you seem to (I assume because if you don’t/won’t see marginalisation, you’ve almost certainly never experienced it yourself), and the idea that they do is so absurd I don’t even know how to get you to see the reality around you when you refuse to open your eyes.
Do you seriously think there are no desperately poor people in your country? No homeless people? No disabled people? No racism? No sexism? No Islamophobia? No Anti-Semitism? No anti-migrant hate (which is a mix of a couple of the former)? No homophobia or transphobia?
Do you seriously think Dutch workers aren’t being exploited by the dozen billionaires in your country (and a bunch outside of it) that control the economy (by, at the very least, hoarding money that would otherwise be circulating)?
Do you seriously think your government works for the benefit of all of those marginalised people, and not for themselves and those aforementioned billionaires?
Whatever, it feels like I’m wasting my breath either way, like I said before - you either take your head out of your ass and look around for yourself at the reality around you and at the unimaginable wealth of information that exists at the tips of your fingers, or you don’t.
Yes I think we both agree. If everyone has access to essential services then that helps everyone, including the people in the middle due to reduced corruption, crime etc.
This reminds me a bit of something I read about why dictatorships, and corruption, are so common world-wide. I forgot the name but there was a book on it.
The basic idea was that when essential services are lacking and not guaranteed for everyone, such as healthcare and education you must sacrifice your integrity in order to secure those for your loved ones.
So, sure, behind all this can be plain crab-mentality, racism and so on. But I also imagine a significant factor can be attributed to fear of losing something seen as essential and not guaranteed.
This is a lie told to us, as zephr_c alludes to, by those manipulating society for their own gain.
The reality is that there is enough food produced globally to feed 10 billion people, we only don’t because it isn’t profitable.
That isn’t to say the fear of being left without, under our current system, isn’t a very real one, it is, and I’m subject to it myself as I’m sure you are, my point is that we need to be aware (and make others aware) of who is telling us there isn’t enough (and putting our lives at risk for money by exploiting us more and more as well as withholding food and housing) and why, rather than just accept it as an inevitable reality, because it isn’t.
I’m from the Netherlands and I can’t say that I’m familiar with these issues personally.
Also how do you want to solve hunger in an area where warlords have power? It isn’t like we can do much about it from here.
Then you’re not looking hard enough (or at all, if at this point you still think your country is somehow untouched by capitalism, which it isn’t)
You’re pointing at a tiny (and very random) symptom of the problem (one that in many if not all cases is created directly by and for capitalists and often the governments they own) and expecting an effective localised solution, but the problem is systemic, and the only way to fix a systemic problem is with systemic solutions - abolish capitalism and build a society that doesn’t need exploitation oppression and massive disparity just to exist.
Do yourself a favour, read up on ant capitalism, on socialism, on anarchism. Look in to your local community and how people in it are struggling (and they are), and how you can help, that’s probably the best thing you can do on a personal level.
Sure I do see some issues. For example we don’t pay stay at home parents, even though it is a lot of work. But this is essentially the shift of family support to state support and it takes time.
Have you ever been to the Netherlands? BTW you sound kind of condescending and I don’t think you’ll get many people for your cause like that.
I’m not here to coddle your feelings or tell you what you want to hear because what you don’t want to hear makes you too uncomfortable.
At the end of the day you’ll either try to be better or not, my tone is just an excuse for you to weasel out of actually doing even the bare minimum like trying to educate yourself.
You might be new to this, but I’m not, it’s the exact same bullshit excuses and derailing each time (you’ve done it again with the stay at home parents, trying to shift focus away from the actual problem)
And yes, I have been to the Netherlands, not that it matters one bit, capitalism is capitalism, and you guys still having the relatively (for obviously privileged people like you, anyway) easy to swallow mild version doesn’t mean it isn’t already decaying, and that the shit the rest of us (in Europe, by the way, I get the feeling you incorrectly presumed I’m American from your pointless and derailing question) are already dealing with isn’t already cooking for you (back to the point I made about educating yourself? If I can find one, two, three in 2 seconds of searching, so can you.)
Get your head out of your ass and if you genuinely care, go do something about it, I’m done spoon feeding your lazy ass, you’re head is taking up too much space for anything to actually sink in.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I understand that you feel strongly about this, and I genuinely want to understand better. Sometimes, a more approachable tone can help bridge gaps and make it easier for others to engage in meaningful dialogue. Strong approaches might make some folks hesitant to join the conversation. I’m here to learn and discuss, so let’s keep things open. Appreciate the sources you provided!
I feel we started off on the wrong foot. Just like you, I’d also like to improve the system we live in. For example I understand that everyone in the Netherlands is privileged, including me, and I’d like for more people in the world to be able to enjoy this quality of life.
Capitalism might not necessarily be the best approach. For example I value the insights from Noam Chomsky about how state funded research provides essentially all technological innovations. Personally I think these innovations are what make our world better over time. I dislike that our knowledge isn’t freely shared with the rest of the world.
Also one of my personal heros is Perelman.
I’ll be honest, I don’t have the will nor the energy to talk you through anti-capitalism from the basics, it’s clear you’re not willing to actually make any effort, so neither am I.
I will just leave you with two things that stick out from this last reply:
Educate yourself on tone policing and stop doing it, it’s not only derailing to the conversation and providing you an excuse to ignore everything being said to you and to do fuck all, it’s also just plain rude and extremely condescending - don’t pretend to want to learn from someone (worse - naturally expect them to educate you) and than focus first and foremost (and almost entirely) on how they’re doing it (especially from your ignorant starting point, where you clearly have no idea about even the basics of the topic, let alone what kinds of oppressions people less privileged than you suffer daily, and just how much of an impact reality has on our lives. You being completely clueless and deliberately detached doesn’t mean you’re more “cool calm and collected” it just shows you lack any sort of passion, let alone relevant lived experience).
The second point I want to address is:
On a global scale, yes, people living in the Netherlands are, on average some of the most privileged, on a local scale however, absolutely not everyone in your country has the same privileges as you seem to (I assume because if you don’t/won’t see marginalisation, you’ve almost certainly never experienced it yourself), and the idea that they do is so absurd I don’t even know how to get you to see the reality around you when you refuse to open your eyes.
Do you seriously think there are no desperately poor people in your country? No homeless people? No disabled people? No racism? No sexism? No Islamophobia? No Anti-Semitism? No anti-migrant hate (which is a mix of a couple of the former)? No homophobia or transphobia?
Do you seriously think Dutch workers aren’t being exploited by the dozen billionaires in your country (and a bunch outside of it) that control the economy (by, at the very least, hoarding money that would otherwise be circulating)?
Do you seriously think your government works for the benefit of all of those marginalised people, and not for themselves and those aforementioned billionaires?
Whatever, it feels like I’m wasting my breath either way, like I said before - you either take your head out of your ass and look around for yourself at the reality around you and at the unimaginable wealth of information that exists at the tips of your fingers, or you don’t.
I’m seriously done here.
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Aren’t healthcare and education serious issues in the US though? It doesn’t seem like a lie.
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Yes I think we both agree. If everyone has access to essential services then that helps everyone, including the people in the middle due to reduced corruption, crime etc.