When do we get the next one?

  • tal@kbin.social
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    1 year ago

    When do we get the next one.

    Well, going off the article:

    and a fourth is expected to begin operations in 2024

  • jackpot@lemmy.ml
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    1 year ago

    holy shit people stop fucking talking when you dont grasp a concept, nuclear energy is genuinely the most green energy there is by a longshot when all factors are considered.

  • pizzaiolo@slrpnk.net
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    1 year ago

    I wonder how many emissions could we have avoided if that money was spent on renewables + batteries while we were waiting for this powerplant to come online

    • Claidheamh@slrpnk.net
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      1 year ago

      Renewables + batteries? You wouldn’t have saved any emissions. Construction of a nuclear plant doesn’t require as much carbon emissions as you think. And regardless, nuclear isn’t competing with renewables, anyway, it’s for replacing carbon-emitting power plants. Nuclear and renewables need to work hand-in-hand if we want to actually reach net zero greenhouse gas emissions.

      • pizzaiolo@slrpnk.net
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        1 year ago

        Money is finite, and every decision creates an opportunity cost. In that sense, every energy generation technology competes with one another.

        • Claidheamh@slrpnk.net
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          1 year ago

          Sure, but we don’t talk about solar vs wind power, do we? They all have their place. It’s the same thing here. Renewables and nuclear each have a place in a zero carbon grid.

    • lntl@lemmy.mlOP
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      1 year ago

      Renewables and batteries are great tools, we need to be building these out. Nuclear can best complement renewables with a stable, emission free, base load capacity. Nuclear has its own challenges, but renewables can not replace enormous load that’s currently carried by coal and gas in the near or extended term.

      • pizzaiolo@slrpnk.net
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        1 year ago

        Nuclear power plants typically retire after 40 years. I wouldn’t be surprised if replacing all the renewables and batteries after 20 or 30 years would still be cheaper than this nuclear plant

        • AToM.exe@lemmy.world
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          1 year ago

          Nuclear is the best solution we have at the moment until fusion reactors work.

    • AnarchoYeasty@beehaw.org
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      1 year ago

      Wait until you learn about the horrific environmental impact of battery production. And the amount of slavery involved in their creation.

        • AnarchoYeasty@beehaw.org
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          1 year ago

          Not great but uranium can be mined in first world nations unlike cobalt which is mined by slaves in the congo. Nuclear is long term better for the environment than cobalt mining for batteries.

    • RGB3x3@lemmy.world
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      1 year ago

      It’s much more reliable and consistent at generating power. It’s not dependent on the sun shining or wind blowing, so you can get the full capacity of generation at all times, making it a better investment for a government trying to support large populations. It also takes up way less land to set up and run.

      Though of course, it doesn’t have to be one or the other. Solar and wind can supplement nuclear really well.

      You can read more about it here: https://changeoracle.com/2022/07/20/nuclear-power-versus-renewable-energy/amp/

      • Klame@lemmy.ml
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        1 year ago

        Your last point is the most important one in my opinion. OP implied we have to chose between nuclear and solar/wind but it’s plain false.

        • PorkRollWobbly@lemmy.ml
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          1 year ago

          And anyone who tells you otherwise probably has a profit incentive rather than an environmentalist one.

          • Klame@lemmy.ml
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            1 year ago

            I thought about it when typing it, but I carried the habit from reddit over to lemmy to consider someone beginning a chain of comments as OP.

            It’s definitely not the original meaning, but I saw it fairly common to use OP to refer to the author of an initial comment when responding to one of its child comment.

        • WetBeardHairs@lemmy.ml
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          1 year ago

          It is also the first Gen III+ reactor in North America. Usually new technology has some growing pains.

          • boonhet@lemm.ee
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            1 year ago

            I think most NPPs run billions and at least a decade over budget at this point.

            I suppose it’s easier to sell the population on a smaller cost to the taxpayer, and then pay more anyway.

          • lemming741@lemmy.world
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            1 year ago

            It was sold as being modular, with lots of fabrication happening off site. That didn’t come to fruition. It was also not too far removed from nukegate in South Carolina.

      • johnhowson@mastodon.social
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        1 year ago

        @Claidheamh @ndsvw
        It depends on the renewables. Wind and photovoltaics have stability issues. Hydro and geothermal are more stable. Nuclear is compact and high power but has huge waste disposal issues.

        • Claidheamh@slrpnk.net
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          1 year ago

          The waste disposal is a solvable issue, that is still less nefarious than fossil fuel emissions. If you set the goal to replace ALL fossil fuel power generation, then nuclear is a necessary component of a renewable energy based grid. Geothermal and hydro are great and necessary, but can’t provide a reliable base load for the entire grid. Nuclear plants are complemental to renewables, not competition.

                • PowerCrazy@lemmy.ml
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                  1 year ago

                  You don’t need to plan “1000’s of years into the future.” Why does Nuclear require a multi-generational plan on a scale that no civilization has ever attained, but burning fossil fuels which will kill most of us within a few generations doesn’t? It’s a distraction, the solution to nuclear waste was solved in the 50’s and the reality is that dangerous nuclear waste is useful and should be recycled, and the low-order nuclear waste isn’t dangerous for anymore then a century at most, and even then it’s only if you consume it.

          • ebikefolder@feddit.de
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            1 year ago

            The waste disposal is a solvable issue

            Strangely enough it hasn’t been solved in the almost 70 years of nuclear energy. And I doubt it will be solved in the next 70 years either.

            • subcytoplasm@l.tta.wtfB
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              1 year ago

              I think that depends on the definition of “solved”.

              In Finland, the Onkalo repository is being steadily built out (honestly, there might already be waste stored there, I haven’t checked in on that story in a while. I know there was some delay due to COVID).

              In the United States, there’s been a lot of the usual politicking about where to build something that doesn’t exactly sound appealing to have in one’s backyard. Nobody wants to be the senator who allowed the government to build a nuclear waste site in their state, no matter how safe the site actually is.

              This has led to the unfortunate situation where by law, the EPA is only allowed to consider a site in Nevada (because the other sites were in states represented by the Speaker of the House and President pro Tempore of the Senate), but because Nevada became an important state for Obama to become president, the site couldn’t/wouldn’t actually be built there and has been on hold pretty much ever since. My armchair understanding is that the Nevada site is probably one of the better places in the United States that you could store nuclear waste, but politics has ensured it will not be put there for a long, long time.

            • Umbrias@beehaw.org
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              1 year ago

              What do you mean hasn’t been solved? Nuclear waste is being processed and stored constantly and with high safety. Not to mention reprocessing which could be done if not for being outlawed.

              • ebikefolder@feddit.de
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                1 year ago

                The only permanent storage for high level waste is currently being built in Finland, if I’m not mistaken. Germany thought they had found one, but they have to retrieve all waste because of leaks. Back to square one.

                All we have up to now is temporary surface storage.

                • Umbrias@beehaw.org
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                  1 year ago

                  There is deep salt vein storage here in the us actively being used as we speak.

                • Umbrias@beehaw.org
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                  1 year ago

                  The pyramids weren’t buried 1km under the surface in flowing salt which will further engulf the waste for geologic time scales.

                  Also we didn’t forget about the pyramids. What does that even mean? People have lived right next to them since they were built.

            • Claidheamh@slrpnk.net
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              1 year ago

              What do you prefer? A power plant where all the hazardous material it generates you throw out into the atmosphere, or one where you can capture all of it into a container and prevent it from going out into the environment?

              • ebikefolder@feddit.de
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                1 year ago

                Neither. I don’t buy the assumption that they are necessary. Renewables plus storage are very well capable of reliable supply.

                Edit: https://www.diw.de/de/diw_01.c.821878.de/publikationen/wochenberichte/2021_29_1/100_prozent_erneuerbare_energien_fuer_deutschland__koordinierte_ausbauplanung_notwendig.html (in German, published by the German Institute for Economic Research, an institution as unsuspicious of being “too green” as it gets)

                • Claidheamh@slrpnk.net
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                  1 year ago

                  Renewables plus storage are very well capable of reliable supply.

                  Don’t get me wrong, they are capable of a much larger percentage of supply than they currently provide, but to handle the predictable periods of peak demand on the grid, it would be incredibly inefficient to rely only on renewables plus storage. It’s not the most environmentally friendly solution for that.

                  Do you have an english translation for the link in the edit btw?

                  an institution as unsuspicious of being “too green” as it gets

                  Being too green is not the problem. The problem is not being green enough…

            • lntl@lemmy.mlOP
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              1 year ago

              It has, it’s just illegal to do in the US. France has been doing it since the 60s.

          • johnhowson@mastodon.social
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            1 year ago

            @Claidheamh
            Nuclear is also very expensive. Bioenergy is the one I missed. That is far cheaper than nuclear and could be scaled up easily. I’m sure there will be a need for both the existing nuclear and indeed some fossil fuels for a while yet. But I think we should focus on getting our renewable energy resources in place in advance of building any new nuclear plants.

            • Claidheamh@slrpnk.net
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              1 year ago

              It may be expensive to build, but it’s much cheaper to run. Just compare France’s and Germany’s energy prices.

              Bioenergy is just more emissions we really can’t afford to put into the atmosphere. It’s basically just a fancy name for “burning wood”.

              • johnhowson@mastodon.social
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                1 year ago

                @Claidheamh straw too. Biofuels are in fact carbon neutral. But yes release CO2. Nuclear also produces CO2 mainly due to the mining, processing and transportation of the fuel. But far less than say coal or gas. The reality is that some new reactors are going to be built. But I believe the money would have been better invested in onshore wind.

                • Claidheamh@slrpnk.net
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                  1 year ago

                  Biofuels are in fact carbon neutral.

                  That’s what their marketing would like you to believe. But they’re only carbon neutral if you take into account the carbon being sequestered by the growth of plants before they’re burned. By that measure they’re just as carbon neutral as coal.

                  Nuclear also produces CO2 mainly due to the mining, processing and transportation of the fuel.

                  That’s not nuclear that produces CO2, that’s mining, processing, and transportation. It’s transversal to anything you build, be it nuclear, bioenergy, wind, solar, hydro, geothermal, anything. In the ideal conditions of your power being entirely carbon-free, then so is all of that.

            • lntl@lemmy.mlOP
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              1 year ago

              I don’t support any continued burning it fossil fuels. That’s what every previous generation said and look at the thermometer.

            • EddoWagt@feddit.nl
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              1 year ago

              but you could still replace that with reneawables as long as you have enough electricity left at night when there is no wind.

              That would require storing all that energy, which isn’t feasible right now and realistically not anytime soon unless we get some kind of battery breakthrough (Still waiting on those solid-state and graphene batteries)

              • egonallanon@lemm.ee
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                1 year ago

                I wonder why we haven’t been looking into mechanical flywheels more ofr the energy storage. They’re far less energy dense sure but their service life blow batteries out of the water long term and when you’re building static grid scale storage space isn’t really a concern.

                • EddoWagt@feddit.nl
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                  1 year ago

                  We have those, that’s pretty much how big energy plants work (Coal, gas and fusion all use that I think), it’s not exactly a flywheel, but a large turbine which can keep spinning for some time. I think a full on flywheel would have to be absolutely massive to produce enough energy to be meaningful, which is probably just not worth it

    • lntl@lemmy.mlOP
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      1 year ago

      Renewables should complement nuclear. “And” not “or”

      The thing is we’ve gotten so good at burning coal that the base load cannot realistically be carried by renewables and transmitted to where the load is. Nuclear, with it’s challenges, is the only technology that can fill the power vacuum left by base load coal and gas generation stations.

    • PowerCrazy@lemmy.ml
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      1 year ago

      Complaining about down votes is some small dick reddit energy, don’t do that in the future. We are on Lemmy now.

      Now to answer your question. “Renewables*” are supplementary. Wind/Solar cannot provide baseline power, and will never be able to provide baseline power for the grid. Any kind of magical energy storage you can come up with that would allow renewables to replace a power plant also requires exotic/expensive tech that would be more expensive then Nuclear power and still doesn’t address baseline power consumption. This kind of question is also used as a distraction by the fossil fuel industry so that you have countries like Germany replacing nuclear power with coal and strip mining.

      Why are they building coal in the first place? Because “renewables” do not produce enough base-line power. If Germany could use magically renewable energy to meet all of their energy demands, they would probably do it, but that isn’t the reality. In the future try to avoid framing solar/wind as competitors to nuclear power. Both are needed, and unlike nuclear power which hasn’t been built on any scale since the 70’s, solar/wind are absolutely used everywhere they can be and if they aren’t sufficient in cases like Georgia, Nuclear should 100% be the answer because if it’s not used you will have coal or gas instead. “Just asking questions” like that shows you don’t understand power-generation and you have fallen for the fossil fuel industries propaganda.

      • Flykr@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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        1 year ago

        Excellent rundown. The baseline power supplier for when there’s no wind or sun can either be natural gas or nuclear, and nuclear produces far less harmful byproducts.

        • Klame@lemmy.ml
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          1 year ago

          I think it’s more likely that you come of as disingenuous given that you come here to parrot some very well known talking points that are plain fallacies aimed at painting nuclear in a negative way.

          Meanwhile, we are getting slow cooked and a lot of people here probably feel the impact of the heat and the urgency of the situation.

    • boonhet@lemm.ee
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      1 year ago

      Renewables aren’t consistent enough alone, so they need a big consistent buddy to help them out. It could be coal or gas, but we’d much rather have nuclear.

    • Claidheamh@slrpnk.net
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      1 year ago

      They’re not mutually exclusive. A society serious about eliminating fossil fuel use needs both.

    • lntl@lemmy.mlOP
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      1 year ago

      The nuclear we built in the 50s is. The technology has come a long way since then, we just haven’t built any.