Move follows Alabama’s recent killing of death row inmate Kenneth Smith using previously untested method
Three of the largest manufacturers of medical-grade nitrogen gas in the US have barred their products from being used in executions, following Alabama’s recent killing of the death row inmate Kenneth Smith using a previously untested method known as nitrogen hypoxia.
The three companies have confirmed to the Guardian that they have put in place mechanisms that will prevent their nitrogen cylinders falling into the hands of departments of correction in death penalty states. The move by the trio marks the first signs of corporate action to stop medical nitrogen, which is designed to preserve life, being used for the exact opposite – killing people.
The green shoots of a corporate blockade for nitrogen echoes the almost total boycott that is now in place for medical drugs used in lethal injections. That boycott has made it so difficult for death penalty states to procure drugs such as pentobarbital and midazolam that a growing number are turning to nitrogen as an alternative killing technique.
Now, nitrogen producers are engaging in their own efforts to prevent the abuse of their products. The march has been led by Airgas, which is owned by the French multinational Air Liquide.
Well, disregarding the normal fear of death that would be there regardless of the method, I think the issue is the mask. It would be much better to just fill the room with N2. You can do this easilly enough by evaporating liquid N2. Of course, this would not be “medical grade” so people would complain just to complain.
We could also just not kill people. Kinda seems to be at the root of this problem.
I could not agree more. People should stop murdering people so there is no need for the death penalty.
Keep in mind this guy thought it was fine to kill someone for $1000. Not any hatred or psychological issue or ideology. Just a bit of cash.
Or we could just not retaliate with execution. We could follow the evidence that execution doesn’t reduce crime rate or severity and to not make murderers of the state
Its this flawed argument on repeat. You just start assuming that killing a murderer (“life for a life”) is somehow automatically wrong and then use it to show death penalty is wrong.
Why is “life for a life” somehow unfair demand for the premeditated murderers? What is this based on? Or just repeating it because you heard it so often.
Youre Right I’m just parroting the idea that killing is bad. Definitely not from a belief that punitive justice is ineffective at reducing crime, that we as a society must be better than our worst people, and a deep terror informed by history at the idea of a government having the power to decide to kill its own citizens.
Like seriously this is fucking gas chambers in Alabama and some people aren’t just horrified by where that might go?
You mix two very different issues. Whether our corrupt governments should have the power to execute people, which they shouldn’t but its not what this article is about. Also, since they had this power since like the beginning of written history, I kind of am too used to it to be horrified.
And if we are executing people, what the method should be. Electric chair is something that actually horrifies me. So if we at least get a 100x more humane method, it is a win in my book. Certainly not gonna loose sleep because it has association with Nazis. So does VolksWagen and Fanta.
Yeah but nobody is mad that the Nazis were drinking fruit based beverages, our problem is that they were doing mass murder. And the method of gas was important to that because it was easier to stomach and scale.
The Nazis were also using trains to transport them because it was more efficient. Lets ban trains. They used guns to keep them in line. Ban governments from having guns. They used fences to keep them in camps. Lets ban fences.
There is no logic to this argument. Its just an appeal to emotion.
“Why do we kill people who kill people to show that killing people is wrong?”
-Holly Near
And we have the capacity to be better than that.
There was no compelling need to execute him. If such a compelling need did exist, it would have presented itself in the past 36 years where he was in custody but not executed. But it didn’t, so the state just waited until some arbitrary time to tick a box that didn’t need to be ticked.
My fundamental issue is with the “better than that”. I really don’t see why letting a cold blooded murderer off lightly would be the better way.
What do you mean by “off lightly?” They’re still getting punished while serving a life sentence. The punishment stops when the lights go out.
Do you actually believe that life imprisonment and death are the same level of punishment? And if yes, why would it matter which one we use?
If it is not the same, then how are they not getting of lightly for ending someone elses life?
Having a comparator does not automatically make something light.
Water torture is not “light” simply because we’re not gouging eyeballs and cutting off testicles. Burning someone with acid is not “light” simply because we’re not actively lighting them on fire.
You have yet to provide any justification for your claim that imprisonment is “light” other than that it’s not death. You can’t justify barbarism simply by saying that something else that isn’t barbarism is lighter by comparison, and therefore barbarism must be justified. Were that true, you could try to justify any proposed barbaric act by saying that the second worst thing is “light” by comparison.
What is the necessity of killing someone after 36 years of not killing them? There’s clearly not a safety concern, or a concern of escape, or anything else pressing. It’s so far removed from the original crime that it’s not really a punishment for that crime anymore: the last 36 years of imprisonment were the punishment. It’s just an act of barbarism for the sake of ticking a box.
I guess both barbarism and light are subjective, but I think I understand your argument.
That being said, there are so many things more barbaric than executing criminals going on in our societies that focusing on this is like fixing a burst water pipe on the sinking Titanic.
Well prison for decades doesn’t seem very light to me. I have never been granted but from those that have I have heard most wouldn’t recommend it.
You think living the rest of your life in a cage is “getting off lightly?” Are you a child?
What need is that, exactly?
You don’t know that. You think that, and there’s evidence to support it, but you don’t know it.
As I wrote in a different thread, yes, I agree we should not have death penalty due to the high possibility (inevitability?) of executing innocent people.
I just don’t see any moral issue with executing actual murderers with N2, just the practical issue of not being able to precisely determine who the murderers are.
If you murder a murderer, that makes you a murderer. Just because the state is the one doing it doesn’t make it okay.
Same (faulty) logic used to tell the oppressed not rise up against their oppressors. If you’re going to conflate all killing with murder, be prepared to get into weeds like self defense and right to die. If you’re willing to admit killing humans is more nuanced than that, then and only then we can have a real discussion.
Sure. I can say that self defense (only in cases where there is an immediate threat of death) is fine due to it being a life or death situation. I can also agree to right to die being okay since there is consent, so long as the person is considered to be in a mentally healthy state.
Not sure about the rising up thing, though, but that is very nuanced. I believe in democracy, but most of the time, corruption makes it so that true democracy becomes impossible. Overthrowing a government is also a difficult topic, since often times, it is a movement that gets coopted by the powerful or by those who seek power instead of those who seek the government to serve all of its people.
There is a difference between reacting to a situation vs creating a new situation.
Very few people would argue against having to use violence to stop someone else from using it, in the moment where other options don’t present themselves. However a murdered container in prison is no longer a threat. The state has the luxury of just keeping them there until time and nature does her thing.
Basically the rules for a crisis are not the rules for a non-crisis. Additionally, if it is required to use violence to stop violence at least the hope is something bad won’t happen. Not the case for someone in jail. The bad thing already happened.
More broadly Ukraine has the right to defend herself. She does not have the right to burn down parts of Russia 40 years from now when the war is long over.
If you bake bread, you are a bread baker. If you play football, you are a football player. If you murder someone, you are a murderer.
If you don’t commit the crime of murder, you are not a murderer. Murder is a legal term. Administering a death penalty is not murder, since it is not a crime.
No matter how much batman says otherwise, there is nothing inherently not ok about death penalty for murderers. Of course, you can dislike it all you want. But don’t go slandering people that disagree with you.
Arguably, the opposite is true: If I decide I really want to kill you, what should be the minimal punishment? Is it ok to just pay a fine? Is it ok to be in prison for a month? How about a year? What if I decide the slap on the wrist punishment is worth it? Why should the punishment be less than paying with my own life in kind? Why is your life worth less than mine when I am the murderer in this hypothetical?
An eye for an eye leaves everyone blind.
Life in prison.
Murder is not exclusively a legal term; it is also used in ethical/moral discussions, like how I used it. A government can decide legallity, but it cannot decide if something is moral or not, although most governments attempt to do so. What is moral or not is also not universal, and can vary across different cultures and time periods.
You mean like what you just did with this comment?
Keep in mind, in the US, there is a ~4% false conviction rate for the death penalty. That means that ~4% of people who get the death penalty are innocent.
Source: https://www.pnas.org/doi/full/10.1073/pnas.1306417111
I do remember about the 4%. That is why I don’t support death penalty.
I am just honest about the reason why I don’t support it, instead of pretending I am somehow morally superior for refusing to kill.
As for life in prison, that is up to everyone’s values, whether that is equivalent. In my view, it is not.
I am also honest about why I don’t support it. I think killing people for any reason is wrong except for the case of a direct threat of violence (self defense). The 4% statistic is just another one of my reasons, but not my main reason.
I mean, you are free to subjectively think that and conform your own actions to that. Refuse to participate in anything death penalty related.
But unless you have any rational basis for it, I don’t see why anyone else should care about what you think.
The same way that the Holocaust was legal…
Why do you even care which way they kill people then? Trying to take the moral high ground, when you’re just as blood thirsty as the condemned.
That’s a ridiculous argument. If I believe a bank robber should be stopped from robbing a bank using force, can’t I also demand the force is not excessive?
Thinking death is an appropriate punishment and torture isn’t is not contradictory.
You think bank robbery is a crime worthy of execution?
I literally said the opposite. Just because I don’t believe people should be allowed to rob banks, I don’t believe they should be killed or maimed for it.
Just because I believe the death penalty is just does not mean I believe people should be tortured.
Name one reason that the death penalty is a good thing that isn’t an appeal to emotion or outrage.
3 things:
Still not enough. I have had the same stance for a long time. The death penalty should only be used, if ever, for crimes so bad that to not use it is to say thr crime was as bad as regular murder. Warlords who commit genocide level.
Yeah the mask and timing is what caused that one prisoner to be in so much suffering since he knew it was going to happen imminently so he held his breath.
If it were done gradually over a period of like 30 minutes, he likely wouldn’t have noticed and just drifted into unconsciousness.
Or put the mask on then switch it to N2 without him knowing when.
A lot more difficult to do without him noticing and the “feared” mask on his face and potential to vomit into the mask would still be an issue.
Yeah the room option is better in that regard.
It would need to have some hardware interlocks engineered though for safety reasons. After turning on the gas, you won’t be able to physically open the door until the ventilation system removes the nitrogen after the execution.
You could do that although N2 gas is not that dangerous. Just opening a door to a well ventilated room will get rid of the gas. It is not poisonous or anything. Its not like you are doing this every week that you get lax about procedure.
Reminder: Texas is still a member of the union, for better or worse.
…No, you’d notice. When you’re in that “not quite enough oxygen in the room” scenario, you get tingles and headaches and such. It kinda sucks. Though I think I’d rather die that way than those gas station lethal injections they’ve been doing.
Just not true! The execution method requires a willing or unconscious victim. Why do people think any type of asphyxiation will be nice and peaceful regardless of the gas used? (yes I understand the “science” behind using this gas.) but what if the person holds their breath, or account for the added adrenaline, or the person hyperventilating. I can go on. It’s not medically sound way to execute people. Honestly, this is the same lies they pushed about previous humane execution methods. “it’s painless, the science is sound.” I promise you, after about 5 more “botched” executions using this N2 method it’ll be abandoned.
“What if the person holds their breath?”
Then it’ll take maybe a minute longer, and their last words are gonna be “BUH! Huh! Huh! Huh! …huh.”
“or account for the added adrenaline”
No oxygen in brain, brain die. I think you lied about understanding the science.
“or the person is hyperventilating”
Yeah, what if they breathe no oxygen faster?
Is there a medically sound way? What does “medically sound” even mean? Theere is no patient who is supposed to survive.
It is the best way of execution I can think of short of explosives near brain.
That’s the point you pull out and try to focus on? “Humane” executions always had a medical backing for why it world work.
Then the you try to say “is the best way of execution I can think of short of explosives near the brain.” oh really that’s the best you can think of? Shows how flawed and warped your understanding of this is. If you honestly want to make it as quick and painless in pretty sure the French figured that out back in 1789. But Ya let’s blow up people’s heads with c4.
Your brain can function without oxygen for over 30 seconds. I see no reason why it wouldn’t in a detached head.
The guillotine suffer from the same issue most execution methods used until now, they only seem “quick and painless”. Nitrogen gas actually is painless.
Nitrogen gas will be found to be unsuitable for execution. I just hope people wake up to this before more people are tortured to death.
I really would like to know: The people who object to N2, if you could pick any reasonably practical execution method (but it has to be execution, no death by old age), what would you pick?
Pick? I’m not picking anything. N2 will be found to be unsuitable for execution for several reason. When I first heard they were exploring the idea, I knew scientifically what they were going for. But knew it would be implemented poorly and would never take individuals bodies and minds into the method. Book mark this comment as I’ll be back every time this ends up “botched.”
You know I’ve always wondered about pro execution people, do you trust government on a local and/or federal level enough to take a life? We know for a fact or justice system is corrupt, flawed, full of biases, and routinely gets it wrong. And you think they’ll get N2 executions right? It’s a simple idea but complex when actually attempted. You’re going to trust the people that couldn’t even make it as a police officer or lawyer to ensure the gas is pure enough, the room was made correctly to house the gas, or that the gas was applied long enough? These aren’t the sharpest people doing the execution and are sick enough mentally to do said execution. So how about you pick or better yet why aren’t you the person carrying out the execution since you are so knowledgeable about this?
First of all, if after all this time electric chair and lethal injection were not found unsuitable, I have zero faith this one would be (at least for the right reasons) regardless of botched attempts.
Second of all, I don’t advocate for our corrupt governments to handle executions. I 100% agree they can’t be trusted with this.
But there is no issue with the method itself, which is what this article is about and I am commenting on. Purity of the gas? What for? Unless there is so much oxygen the patient survives, it should not matter. Certainly not any trace amount you would have in industrial nitrogen supply.
Ah yes, the ole “let’s bring back the guillotine that left you alive and semi conscious for up to 30 seconds while your head rolls around” argument. Such humane, much wow