This argument is dangerous and in fact generalizes in an anti-Semitic way. The horrible actions of the state of Israel are not in any way representative of Judaism. How would you like it if I quoted biblical passages to portray you as a fascist conservative US ultrachrist? Your reference to the Throa does nothing more than that: equate a religious group with the actions of a state. Please think before you post on social media.
I think the world would be a lot better if everyone recognized that these religious books written hundreds or thousands of years ago have some batshit insane things written by some batshit insane people in them and no part of them should be used to dictate people’s lives.
How would you like it if I quoted biblical passages to portray you as a fascist conservative US ultrachrist?
Go ahead, do that. Quote Bible passages, Quran passages, Buddhist, other religious texts and events anywhere to paint me as whatever you think my areligious-ass is.
You will see that most have some passage like my example, that radical right-wing colonial fascists use to justify acts like genocide.
Religion can be a force of good and you’re correct that the actions of Israel are not representative of Judaism as a whole. In fact, whether as a commandment from a holy figure, rules within a religious society to earn just reward, spiritual obligation or of role models portrayed in such texts, the principles of caring for others as you would yourself, acting compassionately to the weak, poor and underprivileged are core tenets of religions everywhere.
However, remember that the post is of a Semitic organization displaying opposition to genocide as an example of anti-Semitism, and I merely provide evidence that there are texts to back up that extremely harmful view.
Implying that Jewish people at large need to be told not to murder children because of the actions of Israel is actually anti-Semitic. Citing parts of the Torah to slander Jews when the topic is about Israel is anti-Semitic.
There are Jewish activists who oppose Israel (and Israel abuses them for their activism when they live there, or outright bans them from ever visiting Israel if they live elsewhere). And there are Jewish Palestinians too.
The Australian Jewish Association posting a picture like the one in the post kind of implicates Jews at large if such actions aren’t widely condemned and taken back, even if it seems anti-Semitic to do so.
That said there are many Jews that advocate for peace and to end this violence.
The Australian Jewish Association posting a picture like the one in the post kind of implicates Jews at large if such actions aren’t widely condemned and taken back…
No it absolutely does not. Pointing at an organization’s statement and placing the responsibility of finding and condemning the message on Jewish people is insane. Do you think Jewish people are a hive mind or something?
The Australian Jewish Association is openly a pro-Israel and right wing organization. They say as much on their website. Why are you comfortable pointing at anything the org says and painting it as widely representative of Jewish views?
Unfortunately it’s overshadowed by a massive suppression campaign all over the world to hide voices of protest and justify the occupation.
A campaign that you’re not helping to oppose by pointing at the AJA and holding Jewish people culpable for its messages, nor by citing the Torah to slander Jewish people as child killers.
You’re correct, but that’s the crux of the problem.
Rank and file members of a religion need to come out against right-wing groups like the AJA that appropriate and hide behind the name of a religion to excuse being awful people. Otherwise they will use passages like the one I highlight to say this is what the religion really is about, which it isn’t.
This is applicable to Islam, Christianity, Catholicism, Buddhism and other religions just as much as Judaism.
Do you have a problem when the same argument is used against the Palestinians, and Hamas? The narrative there is that Hamas is built on the framework of “death to Israel and the Jews”, and since the Palestinians don’t come out strongly enough against the requested then they are guilty. Other Arab/Muslim majority neighboring nations denying them as refugees because of the levels of radicalization that have occurred, which gives ammunition to the pro-Israel sides declaration that the rank and file Palestinians are hiding behind Islamic Jihad and antisemitism to try and genocide the Jews.
I have the same issue with Hamas vs. Palestinians, yes. There was one Hamas official’s comment of “It’s going to be October 7th again and again until Israel is destroyed.” and likewise there are religious texts of eliminating all people of non-Islam belief to back radical and harmful views just like the Torah example in my top-level comment.
Instead we need to give the voice to both Jewish and Islamic voices that express peace, compassion for one another and an end to violence.
Yep, all cops aren’t bad, just a few… So because there are a handful of Israelis who don’t support murdering women and children, you can’t criticize any Israelis or their leaders or their country. It’s just a massive conspiracy to hide that overwhelming protest against stealing land and killing children.
If you have a Jewish state by their own admission and put a lot of meaning into their text. Israel.
That state says something is Anti-Semetic.
Then someone references their own text to show how they believe something to be their religious right and telling someone to stop that is anti-semitic.
I get that this point is satirical to a degree because I’m not sure even using religion many people would say they have a right to kill children. But I think the comment is more about showing how stupid arguments are when they are based on religion rather than saying all Jews are child killers.
It would be like some Catholics killed some gay guys who were kissing and the Catholics said the gay guys where being racist and anti-Catholic.
If someone say well the bible says you should kill gays.
The hidden argument is that basing an argument on a historical text is stupid gives no justification for committing a crime. It doesn’t say all Catholics are gay killers, because rationally no one would believe that person is saying that.
If you have a Jewish state by their own admission and put a lot of meaning into their text. Israel.
That state says something is Anti-Semetic.
Then someone references their own text to show how they believe something to be their religious right and telling someone to stop that is anti-semitic
If I’m reading what you’re saying right, then you think the commenter was trying to mock Israel for their actions in Palestine by joking that Israel holds points about Judaism that justify child murder as sacred (thus telling them to stop would be “anti-Semitic” because their view of Judaism privileges child murdering.)
If I’m reading you right, then
that reading is incredibly generous to the point of inaccuracy. Because the context for this is the commenter looking at a post by the AJA, finding a piece of the Torah that reads like it supports child murder, then concludin that because this is part of Sacred Jewish Texts that it is anti-Semitic to tell “them” to stop killing children. This isn’t helped by the commenter repeatedly asserting that it is somehow encumbant on all Jews to unilaterally denounce any pro-Israel messaging by any organization with “Jewish” in its name. (I can only guess they think Jews have a radar in their heads that goes “blip” whenever a post like this is made. Otherwise, I don’t know how that could possibly be a reasonable expectation.)
this assumption relies on a reading of Israel as a representative of Judaism, or that either Judaism or Jewish people are accountable to Israel or it’s appropriation of religion. I’m not sure whether this assumption walks the line of or directly crosses into dual loyalty territory, but it certainly sees that line.
It would be like some Catholics killed some gay guys who were kissing and the Catholics said the gay guys where being racist and anti-Catholic.
What’s interesting about your analogy is that there is a state that proports to represent Catholicism (Vatican City) that you could have used here, but didn’t do so by using “some Catholics” instead. After all, it would be crazy to hold all Catholics responsible and hold them to account to rebut the Vaticans claims for these hypothetical killings if “soldiers from Vatican City” did the killings, no matter what rationale the Vatican would have hypothetically given for them.
I wonder if there is a state and group of people that this analysis should also apply to.
You understand jokes and satire right? Well obviously not. It hasn’t got to be bang on accurate to what is UN decreed official language.
The premise of the joke is this:
1 Someone makes a comment about how Israel shoukd stop committing crimes against humanity.
2 It gets called anti Semetic
3 Someone satrically defends Israel/that person also defending Israel.
The joke is about how stupid the second point is by futher adding to the stupidity for comedic effect in 3.
How you read that as to be anti semetic to the whole of Jews honestly is starting to read like you are futher adding to the joke by expanding on the stupid anti semetic comment in point 2.
I’m not sure Israel and the Vatican are analogous examples which is why I didnt use it. But sure change it to saying not allowing the Pope or cardinals to fuck kids is anti-Catholic for all I care. I was trying to help explain the joke but now I’m thinking are you trolling.
This should be pointed more often, if ideology of a group is including culling other groups then you shouldn’t be surprised they actually start doing it someday, this actually also points at many other groups out there and people tend to forget about it till it’s too late
Even if most people would not invoke the commandment to destroy Amalek today, there are certainly those, like Rabbi Riemer, who have ventured to do so. And there has been no dearth of similar, violent invocations in reference to the Palestinians, as well. For example, Benzi Lieberman, the chairman of the Council of Settlements said in no uncertain terms: “The Palestinians are Amalek! We will destroy them. We won’t kill them all. But we will destroy their ability to think as a nation. We will destroy Palestinian nationalism.”
The general consensus among today’s Jewish community seems to be that our energies can and must be used to stop the perpetuation of genocidal activity occurring throughout the world, to become agents for peace, and to dismiss any contemporary comparisons to the biblical paradigm. But clearly there are difficult texts and teaching that remain in our tradition that must be remembered and reckoned with.
Right, so if this is the consensus (although there is reason to believe it is), then this occupation of Gaza should have been condemned and stopped months ago by Jewish organizations everywhere, hand in hand with peace groups, humanitarian organizations like MSF, Palestinian groups. The level of suppression of media and protest happening from Israeli and Jewish organizations show a level of complicity in the elected right-wing level governments actions, and only a handful of brave Jewish groups and rabbis have publicly spoken out against it.
That’s a fair question. Sign onto the open letters produced by various peace and humanitarian organizations.
Put out advertisements and advocacy in support of a ceasefire. Pressure local, state/provincial, federal governments to restrict your nation’s support to the Israeli government. Push local and national theistic organizations co-ordinate a message for peace and compassion for the displaced and hungry, end violence and bring aid to their fellow Palestinian Semite.
https://www.jewishvoiceforpeace.org I do believe the large majority of Jews worldwide care for peace and humanitarian compassion. They should be upset and revolt at letting the current Israeli government tarnish their culture and religion in vain, at the cost of thousands of innocent lives. They should support BDS (and in Canada)
We do need to separate the anger towards Israel with anything with Judaism. The issue is that Israeli government, various Israeli organizations and the most moral army in the world are tying themselves to Judaism to excuse heinous acts of violence.
None of that will stop a genocide that Netanyahu is dedicated to seeing to completion. The only person who can stop this genocide is Netanyahu. And none of those organizations will help there.
Humbly, I disagree. The U.S. Department of State has been in lock-step with Netanyahu’s wants and needs to conduct this genocide. It has vetoed a ceasefire resolution multiple times. American uniforms, American vehicles, American arms are delivered to and used by the IDF. Domestic pressure in the US will have an effect.
Restricting deliveries of such tools to conduct genocide will hamper Netanyahu’s ability to conduct the mission, which can be advocated for by people and organizations anywhere.
If we care for a rules-based order in the world, if the majority of a religion’s followers believe in the compassionate core of their religion, we can show it, even if it wouldn’t materially affect how Netanyahu conducts his genocide.
This will have an effect (in stopping Israel’s actions).
I can edit it to more directly address how to stop it if this satisfies you, but continuing a conversation of the particular words I use or do not will not be productive for either of us. Thank you for the conversation.
The vast majority of Jews do not accept what ancient iron age text happen to say as if they were modern moral texts and recognize their ancient flaws. Because most Jews aren’t Orthodox, who are the only ones who believe all that shit.
The rabbi at the temple when I was growing up was a lesbian. The rabbi at the temple there now (coincidentally) is a gay man. Considering homosexuality is condemned in the torah and they are still rabbis, that should tell you something.
Hey, I agree with you my comment was a bit bigoted. This comment was half-written in the context of being a Lemmy Shitpost, but it has spawned a chain of genuine discussion.
The important thing is to separate the hate for what Israel is doing from Jewish people in general. (Same with Palestinians, Hamas and Islam)
Anti-Semites and Nazis, Islamic fundamentalists, the Israeli government, the Australian Jewish Association all try to fuse the two together to justify violence.
Yeh, it should be about criticizing and standing against the Israeli state, hamas, and their supporters to be specific, not the folks these entities claim to represent.
Killing men, women and children of a “group” that wronged them is a sacred part of the Jewish texts, so it’s anti-Semitic to tell them to stop killing children.
This argument is dangerous and in fact generalizes in an anti-Semitic way. The horrible actions of the state of Israel are not in any way representative of Judaism. How would you like it if I quoted biblical passages to portray you as a fascist conservative US ultrachrist? Your reference to the Throa does nothing more than that: equate a religious group with the actions of a state. Please think before you post on social media.
I think that would be really entertaining.
I think the world would be a lot better if everyone recognized that these religious books written hundreds or thousands of years ago have some batshit insane things written by some batshit insane people in them and no part of them should be used to dictate people’s lives.
Go ahead, do that. Quote Bible passages, Quran passages, Buddhist, other religious texts and events anywhere to paint me as whatever you think my areligious-ass is.
You will see that most have some passage like my example, that radical right-wing colonial fascists use to justify acts like genocide.
Religion can be a force of good and you’re correct that the actions of Israel are not representative of Judaism as a whole. In fact, whether as a commandment from a holy figure, rules within a religious society to earn just reward, spiritual obligation or of role models portrayed in such texts, the principles of caring for others as you would yourself, acting compassionately to the weak, poor and underprivileged are core tenets of religions everywhere.
1 2 3
However, remember that the post is of a Semitic organization displaying opposition to genocide as an example of anti-Semitism, and I merely provide evidence that there are texts to back up that extremely harmful view.
bummy bummy bum bums
Implying that Jewish people at large need to be told not to murder children because of the actions of Israel is actually anti-Semitic. Citing parts of the Torah to slander Jews when the topic is about Israel is anti-Semitic.
There are Jewish activists who oppose Israel (and Israel abuses them for their activism when they live there, or outright bans them from ever visiting Israel if they live elsewhere). And there are Jewish Palestinians too.
The Australian Jewish Association posting a picture like the one in the post kind of implicates Jews at large if such actions aren’t widely condemned and taken back, even if it seems anti-Semitic to do so.
That said there are many Jews that advocate for peace and to end this violence.
Just one example of many: https://www.jewishvoiceforpeace.org/
Unfortunately it’s overshadowed by a massive suppression campaign all over the world to hide voices of protest and justify the occupation.
No it absolutely does not. Pointing at an organization’s statement and placing the responsibility of finding and condemning the message on Jewish people is insane. Do you think Jewish people are a hive mind or something?
The Australian Jewish Association is openly a pro-Israel and right wing organization. They say as much on their website. Why are you comfortable pointing at anything the org says and painting it as widely representative of Jewish views?
A campaign that you’re not helping to oppose by pointing at the AJA and holding Jewish people culpable for its messages, nor by citing the Torah to slander Jewish people as child killers.
You’re correct, but that’s the crux of the problem.
Rank and file members of a religion need to come out against right-wing groups like the AJA that appropriate and hide behind the name of a religion to excuse being awful people. Otherwise they will use passages like the one I highlight to say this is what the religion really is about, which it isn’t.
This is applicable to Islam, Christianity, Catholicism, Buddhism and other religions just as much as Judaism.
Do you have a problem when the same argument is used against the Palestinians, and Hamas? The narrative there is that Hamas is built on the framework of “death to Israel and the Jews”, and since the Palestinians don’t come out strongly enough against the requested then they are guilty. Other Arab/Muslim majority neighboring nations denying them as refugees because of the levels of radicalization that have occurred, which gives ammunition to the pro-Israel sides declaration that the rank and file Palestinians are hiding behind Islamic Jihad and antisemitism to try and genocide the Jews.
I have the same issue with Hamas vs. Palestinians, yes. There was one Hamas official’s comment of “It’s going to be October 7th again and again until Israel is destroyed.” and likewise there are religious texts of eliminating all people of non-Islam belief to back radical and harmful views just like the Torah example in my top-level comment.
Instead we need to give the voice to both Jewish and Islamic voices that express peace, compassion for one another and an end to violence.
Yep, all cops aren’t bad, just a few… So because there are a handful of Israelis who don’t support murdering women and children, you can’t criticize any Israelis or their leaders or their country. It’s just a massive conspiracy to hide that overwhelming protest against stealing land and killing children.
I see what your saying but I’m not sure I agree.
If you have a Jewish state by their own admission and put a lot of meaning into their text. Israel.
That state says something is Anti-Semetic.
Then someone references their own text to show how they believe something to be their religious right and telling someone to stop that is anti-semitic.
I get that this point is satirical to a degree because I’m not sure even using religion many people would say they have a right to kill children. But I think the comment is more about showing how stupid arguments are when they are based on religion rather than saying all Jews are child killers.
It would be like some Catholics killed some gay guys who were kissing and the Catholics said the gay guys where being racist and anti-Catholic.
If someone say well the bible says you should kill gays.
The hidden argument is that basing an argument on a historical text is stupid gives no justification for committing a crime. It doesn’t say all Catholics are gay killers, because rationally no one would believe that person is saying that.
If I’m reading what you’re saying right, then you think the commenter was trying to mock Israel for their actions in Palestine by joking that Israel holds points about Judaism that justify child murder as sacred (thus telling them to stop would be “anti-Semitic” because their view of Judaism privileges child murdering.)
If I’m reading you right, then
that reading is incredibly generous to the point of inaccuracy. Because the context for this is the commenter looking at a post by the AJA, finding a piece of the Torah that reads like it supports child murder, then concludin that because this is part of Sacred Jewish Texts that it is anti-Semitic to tell “them” to stop killing children. This isn’t helped by the commenter repeatedly asserting that it is somehow encumbant on all Jews to unilaterally denounce any pro-Israel messaging by any organization with “Jewish” in its name. (I can only guess they think Jews have a radar in their heads that goes “blip” whenever a post like this is made. Otherwise, I don’t know how that could possibly be a reasonable expectation.)
this assumption relies on a reading of Israel as a representative of Judaism, or that either Judaism or Jewish people are accountable to Israel or it’s appropriation of religion. I’m not sure whether this assumption walks the line of or directly crosses into dual loyalty territory, but it certainly sees that line.
What’s interesting about your analogy is that there is a state that proports to represent Catholicism (Vatican City) that you could have used here, but didn’t do so by using “some Catholics” instead. After all, it would be crazy to hold all Catholics responsible and hold them to account to rebut the Vaticans claims for these hypothetical killings if “soldiers from Vatican City” did the killings, no matter what rationale the Vatican would have hypothetically given for them.
I wonder if there is a state and group of people that this analysis should also apply to.
Omfg you understand this is a shitpost right?
You understand jokes and satire right? Well obviously not. It hasn’t got to be bang on accurate to what is UN decreed official language.
The premise of the joke is this:
1 Someone makes a comment about how Israel shoukd stop committing crimes against humanity.
2 It gets called anti Semetic
3 Someone satrically defends Israel/that person also defending Israel.
The joke is about how stupid the second point is by futher adding to the stupidity for comedic effect in 3.
How you read that as to be anti semetic to the whole of Jews honestly is starting to read like you are futher adding to the joke by expanding on the stupid anti semetic comment in point 2.
I’m not sure Israel and the Vatican are analogous examples which is why I didnt use it. But sure change it to saying not allowing the Pope or cardinals to fuck kids is anti-Catholic for all I care. I was trying to help explain the joke but now I’m thinking are you trolling.
This should be pointed more often, if ideology of a group is including culling other groups then you shouldn’t be surprised they actually start doing it someday, this actually also points at many other groups out there and people tend to forget about it till it’s too late
Thanks. I am willing to risk religious people of all stripes to downvote me for saying it, not that points matter.
Have to condemn Riemer & Lieberman here…
How’d you interpret the last two paragraphs?
Right, so if this is the consensus (although there is reason to believe it is), then this occupation of Gaza should have been condemned and stopped months ago by Jewish organizations everywhere, hand in hand with peace groups, humanitarian organizations like MSF, Palestinian groups. The level of suppression of media and protest happening from Israeli and Jewish organizations show a level of complicity in the elected right-wing level governments actions, and only a handful of brave Jewish groups and rabbis have publicly spoken out against it.
How do you propose those organizations do that? Go to Gaza and start shooting at IDF troops?
That’s a fair question. Sign onto the open letters produced by various peace and humanitarian organizations.
Put out advertisements and advocacy in support of a ceasefire. Pressure local, state/provincial, federal governments to restrict your nation’s support to the Israeli government. Push local and national theistic organizations co-ordinate a message for peace and compassion for the displaced and hungry, end violence and bring aid to their fellow Palestinian Semite.
https://www.jewishvoiceforpeace.org I do believe the large majority of Jews worldwide care for peace and humanitarian compassion. They should be upset and revolt at letting the current Israeli government tarnish their culture and religion in vain, at the cost of thousands of innocent lives. They should support BDS (and in Canada)
We do need to separate the anger towards Israel with anything with Judaism. The issue is that Israeli government, various Israeli organizations and the most moral army in the world are tying themselves to Judaism to excuse heinous acts of violence.
None of that will stop a genocide that Netanyahu is dedicated to seeing to completion. The only person who can stop this genocide is Netanyahu. And none of those organizations will help there.
Humbly, I disagree. The U.S. Department of State has been in lock-step with Netanyahu’s wants and needs to conduct this genocide. It has vetoed a ceasefire resolution multiple times. American uniforms, American vehicles, American arms are delivered to and used by the IDF. Domestic pressure in the US will have an effect.
Restricting deliveries of such tools to conduct genocide will hamper Netanyahu’s ability to conduct the mission, which can be advocated for by people and organizations anywhere.
Other countries, including Canada believing every damn word coming from the IDF without question while being slow to corroborate other information is something that needs to change. Cities like Chicago have come out with an official stance in support of Palestine, other cities can too.
If we care for a rules-based order in the world, if the majority of a religion’s followers believe in the compassionate core of their religion, we can show it, even if it wouldn’t materially affect how Netanyahu conducts his genocide.
You said stop it, not have an effect. Those are very different.
I can edit it to more directly address how to stop it if this satisfies you, but continuing a conversation of the particular words I use or do not will not be productive for either of us. Thank you for the conversation.
The vast majority of Jews do not accept what ancient iron age text happen to say as if they were modern moral texts and recognize their ancient flaws. Because most Jews aren’t Orthodox, who are the only ones who believe all that shit.
The rabbi at the temple when I was growing up was a lesbian. The rabbi at the temple there now (coincidentally) is a gay man. Considering homosexuality is condemned in the torah and they are still rabbis, that should tell you something.
It’s part of the Bible, too, so it’s also anti-Christian!
Absolutely correct.
This comment is actually pretty bigoted. I’ve heard literal Nazis talk the exact same way about Muslims and their religious texts.
Just because something was written in a religious book a thousand years ago doesn’t mean it is automatically endorsed by the entire population.
Hey, I agree with you my comment was a bit bigoted. This comment was half-written in the context of being a Lemmy Shitpost, but it has spawned a chain of genuine discussion.
The important thing is to separate the hate for what Israel is doing from Jewish people in general. (Same with Palestinians, Hamas and Islam)
Anti-Semites and Nazis, Islamic fundamentalists, the Israeli government, the Australian Jewish Association all try to fuse the two together to justify violence.
Yeh, it should be about criticizing and standing against the Israeli state, hamas, and their supporters to be specific, not the folks these entities claim to represent.
People are missing the satire and humour in this post obviously.
It’s a joke people. He’s pointing out stupidity.
fascist