At risk of being a dork I’ll also compare this to Star Trek (largely because OP is a clear fan). Both series are really timeless and impactful imo because they portray people as almost supremely emotionally intelligent. Everyone is very professional when they need to be - capable of great emotional restraint, but also deeply empathetic and caring and ‘tender’ when the time is right.
I mean Gimli is supposed to be the “emotional hothead” of the Fellowship and he’s literally more chill and emotionally controlled than most of the people you run into working retail
That’s why Star Trek is sometimes referred to as “competency porn.”
As someone who spent time in the military, I know exactly what you mean.
I wish the people I worked with were 25% as competent, rational, and level headed as the crew of the Enterprise.
Edit: Spelling
It’s funny, when I was a fresh college grad I actually considered joining the millitary because I really did have a desire for that competent, almost bureaucratic professionalism and mature outlook.
Then I kind of got my heads out of the clouds and realized diction and reality are pretty separate
It’s almost embarrassing to admit, but TNG was a factor for me in finding emotional maturity.
I was a happy, naive child that was lucky to get to 8 before everything sorta fell apart. Parents divorced, sexual abuse from within the extended family by different people, having to toughen up at school due to the emotional issues starting to crop up, abandoned by a parent because of their addiction, and even the social pressure during the satanic panic (this was obviously the 80’s).
Somehow, I did manage to keep some of the happy-go-lucky and naivete, but otherwise I had a rough time reigning in my temper and sometimes would break into tears from being overwhelmed (alone, obviously, because I had to be manly).
When I got into watching TNG, I really admired Picard as a character template, and worked on some of my own self perceived character flaws, and why I acted the way I did. Essentially, looking for the causes and not the symptoms. It was the start of a growth that continues still. His morality and introspection as an archetype gave me hope.
A therapist surely would’ve been a better way to go about it, but those weren’t really much of an option for us back then.
I wouldn’t be embarrassed about that at all. TNG also showed me the world I wanted to build for the future.
Thank you!
I’m a pretty pragmatic at heart, so I feel silly sometimes when realizing that I used fictional characters for inspiration to build myself up. I don’t aspire to be the hero of anything, but do want to be someone that is worthy of respect.
Reality reflects art reflects reality. Star Trek has inspired countless people to live up to their potential and even bring to life the fantastic devices we see in those shows.
Very apt. Oddly enough I’ve only heard the phrase applied to The X-Files
But Scully and Mulder never succeed and demonstrating paranormal phenomena to anyone.
Can’t blame Scully, pretty sure she gets amnesia on a weekly basis
They’re talking about the guys keeping everything under wraps
See also “The West Wing”, which is also entirely more fantastical than 24th century utopian space exploration, based on (gestures broadly)
Television in general can be “competency porn”. Nobody speaks to each other in real life with the attentiveness and thoughtfulness of TV show characters. Most people are devoid of empathy and bad at conversation. If you try to be as attentive and witty and empathetic as characters on TV (the ones at least that aren’t written to be terrible people a la IASIP) people will think you’re autistic.
Oh shit, everybody knows I’m autistic.
Suddenly vanishes the moment you’re promoted to Admiral, apparently
turn it around, only shitty people tend to be promoted to such positions, it’s like the saying that the best president is one who doesn’t want the position.
I was just making a joke about how every admiral in the franchise turns out to be the bad guy in some way, due to malice, incompetence, or because they were replaced by aliens wearing their skins.
Its so relaxing
Put Gimli in retail and watch him pull out his battleaxe.
Only if he works at Walmart.
Oh Walmart isn’t the bottom of the barrel. A rite aid in the bad part of town is worse, or fuck being one of the only two people controlling a dollar store seems like some kind of weird hell.
capable of great emotional restraint, but also deeply empathetic and caring and ‘tender’ when the time is right
Then there’s Beverly who wanted Worf to live as a cripple and would deny him both an honorable death and a chance at a normal life, all because she couldn’t reconcile her views with those of a different culture. That episode still pisses me off to no end.
I’ll never forget the time I ran into an old friend of mine and I went to give him a hug and he awkwardly laughed and said uh, no, and shook my hand.
We’re still very good friends and we send several texts to each other every week.
But it’s a terrible feeling when you instinctively go to hug someone with zero sexual feelings and get instantly and reflexively rejected. I don’t blame my friend. I blame our fucked up culture.
'Murica: where we love our guns more than we love our school children. Is it any wonder men can’t hug here.
My goddamn dad does this to me. Like I made a conscious decision years ago to give him hugs because I felt like it was bullshit to not show him affection. After a few years he started intercepting me and now forces the handshake.
He also became radically conservative in that time…
To be fair, you might be trying to fuck him. A handshake is safe.
That’s fucked up dude. You deserve for your dad to hug you. Everyone does
Maybe he’s taking those Alex Jones manly man pills
I don’t know your friend, but I just don’t like people touching me in general. I’ve had people get upset that I won’t hug them, but my boundaries are valid and should be respected. Not everyone wants to hug.
I understand where you’re coming from, and your boundaries should be respected. Which is why I did not make an issue out of it. Like I said, we’re still very good friends. And when he waved me off I just laughed awkwardly back and went with it.
And…I know him really well. It isn’t that he doesn’t like being touched. He, like a lot of men in America, is super phobic about anything within 500 miles of “gay”.
That phobia shit is ridiculous. My first roommate was an openly gay guy (I’m straight), and the number of questions I got about my living situation or discomfort some clowns had about coming over was absurd. I thought folks had gotten somewhat better about it by now, but I guess not. Sad to hear.
You’re secure with yourself, they are insecure.
You’re friend might be afraid of “gay” touching, I wouldn’t know. But I do think that can also be an easy way to explain away someone’s boundaries without understanding the complexity of the behaviors involved.
I have fairly strong boundaries, and as a general rule I don’t want people hugging me. This isn’t because there is something sexual about the hug, but because I don’t want the unwelcome close physical contact. A lot of people get to the point of welcoming that kind of contact faster than I do, and that’s fine, good for them. But that doesn’t make my comfort level less valid. And critically, one thing that makes it so hard is the social expectation, the idea that there is something wrong with saying no, and the implication that you should let people do these things that make you uncomfortable. In fact some people will ignore those boundaries and act like it’s doing you a favor, as though willfully inflicting themselves on others is supposed to make people less defensive.
And yet, if someone is having a hard time and needs an arm around their shoulder, I’m there. I will absolutely hug someone who is hurting and needs to be comforted. I’m a very caring person, and I don’t have a problem with that kind of physical contact when it’s for someone else’s benefit, as long as it’s my choice to offer it.
Sexuality only really enters into it in that a bit of sexual attraction can also quickly overcome those boundaries. It’s easy to welcome intimate contact with someone when a primitive part of your brain is trying to nudge you into doing whatever it takes to get this person naked and pressed against you. It’s a specific desire overriding the general preference for boundaries, not the context for all physical contact.
I think the key difference is whether or not a man rejects hugs only from men or from all people. I’ve met plenty of people who aren’t huggers - male and female - who don’t like being hugged by anyone except maybe intimate partners or close family members, but if a man is only afraid of getting hugs from men then that’s a separate issue from general bodily autonomy.
Same, I don’t even like handshakes. I’ll happily accept a fist bump. I’m different around my wife and kid, because I don’t open up like that for just anyone—not even the rest of my family, long story I don’t feel like telling. Doesn’t mean I’m not emotionally unavailable; on the contrary, my coworkers are happy to have me on their team because I am very much the opposite of that, I am empathetic and just want everyone’s day to go by as smoothly as it can.
I think you have to accept that people have different boundaries on how they want to show affection to different kinds of relationships, and that this doesn’t mean they don’t love you.
I’ve been very clear in my replies that I do respect those boundaries. Some people don’t want to be touched. This has been heard, understood, respected by me, and there is zero counter-argument from me. There is no lack of understanding or need to correct me on this point.
And the incident I recalled did no long-term damage to our friendship. It was a hurtful moment, I got over it, I didn’t push the issue, and we’re still friends.
The point of the OP’s post and my first comment is to try and address how unfortunate it is that the cultural default is: men hugging is icky and gay.
I agree with a lot of what you say, but your last line is ridiculous. Everyone in LotR was armed to the teeth, and that was no hindrance to expressing their feelings for one another.
Its not about the weapons it’s about the weapon culture. In the LOTR they respected the weapons and their purpose, simple.
I’m not sure how that is different. They had same sort of awe for weapons that a lot of weapon hobbyists do. Hell, I remember reading about/seeing ceremonial and decorative weapons in LOTR.
I’m sure any gun nut will happily tell you how much they respect guns.
Thank you, very nicely put into context.
This is nonsense
Pretty sure the goodly people like humans, elves, dwarves, and Hobbits didn’t mow down their own kids with crossbows on a regular basis like we do with our guns.
Historically there’s been a shitload of children slaughtered with swords and arrows.
During war. Really reaching aren’t we.
And completely ignoring the fact there are modern countries in the world today where children are not regularly shot to death in school.
During war also. Unless you were under the assumption there weren’t killings and shit outside of war during medieval times or something.
there are modern countries in the world today where children are not regularly shot to death in school.
I’m not ignoring it at all. You just hadn’t added that caveat before. You were just talking about people using weapons to kill their kids which did regularly did happen swords and crossbows. It’s not like people have changed for the better.
Well yeah it was a war. Everyone was armed to the teeth because war. Except in the shire where nobody was armed because peaceful land of homes.
I’m used to hugging my friends, and saying ‘Love ya, bud.’ I never thought that was weird, as my dad is fairly physically affectionate, until my high school girlfriend had her dad give us a ride. He was absolutely bewildered at the behavior as I said goodbye to my friends.
Some people just don’t like hugs
I don’t hug no matter how non-sexually. No touching pls.
Shaking hands is great.
I don’t know why everyone is all over hugs and are like “oh you’re a weirdo for not being comfortable hugging me”.
I’ll hug my guy friends but a handshake is just better.
Hug female friends handshake guy friends. (Girls are shit at shaking hands).
That’s what happens when a gentleman who fought in WWI and dreamt of a cottage writes fantasy.
Sure, the last time I tried to be tender and emotional like this my wife mocked me for crying. Do I wish for close relationships like this with my fellow men, yes but there’s no room for it for some of us. Toxic masculinity is also expressed by the women in our society (USA)
So what if you get mocked for not being “manly”? Man up and double down. Tell her a real man knows it’s ok to show emotions from time to time
You can’t demand people accept you because they just won’t. If this guy’s wife doesn’t respect emotional expression that’s not likely changing.
This isn’t the internet. People who respect you IRL will either listen or debate with you
And they SHOULD NOT BE MARRIED
Find a better human to be your wife.
I know that’s an extreme comment but I couldn’t imagine being with someone where I have to be guarded or keep walls up, that’s really unhealthy.
There is no reality where I would expose myself to that kind of abuse, because it is abuse. Anyone mocked for having emotions is being abused.
I can’t speak for anyone else, but I would find far more contentment being alone and free to cry when needed than being afraid to show emotion around someone who is supposed to love and support me.
I suppose I’m lucky to be with someone who has expressed satisfaction at the fact I don’t bottle up my emotions.
If you can’t put down your arms with the people you love, it’s not true love
I mean, the problem here is that if you want emotionally available men you have to treat men better.
Good luck getting people to do that.
Look up Troy Hawke on Instagram and use his act as a guide.
Who are you talking to?
You must be new here. This is a comment section. Others call it a thread. You use it to comment on things.
It’s cool. I’ve been here a while. Enjoy the incels.
The answer is “incels”. You’re talking to incels.
Enjoy the gratification online, but it’s gross.
Different person. Next lesson we’ll learn about usernames.
I’m talking to you numb nuts. Look ONE day back in my comments. My point was they were talking, and you are talking/ virtue signaling to incels. Continue to do so. It’s a good red flag.
Yeah, and I’m talking to you. All I said was that I wasn’t the same person you asked your original question to. “Who are you talking to?” Was not asked to me. I must not have taught you very well.
In comment sections and threads, anybody can jump into conversations. You can see that when I jumped in after you asked a question.
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I wish there were more people like OP, because the only way I can make people who are neither my friends or family recognize that I’m being treated unfairly is by getting angry. Humans have a gigantic range of emotions they may feel and yet most of them think that just because you belong to one gender or another only a portion of those emotions are valid.
This type of relationship is pretty common in war. You and the squad end up “in the shit” and now you have all crossed the boundaries of what civilians call “manliness”. You are free, unimpeachable, the manliest thing, a real warrior, a soldier in battle. The things you do now define manliness, you are writing the rules. They can call you whatever, you will reply with the sort of laughter that silences fools.
People die around you. The sound of another man’s voice becomes poetry to you. How much longer will you hear his voice? Who knows, tell him a shitty joke. Sit on his lap for a gag, do whatever. Drink in his presence, press his flesh against yours, be alive together, try to keep him in your memory, tomorrow we all may die. Has anybody seen those pictures of soldiers from the American Civil War all hanging out and mugging for the camera? Acting all “gay” with each other? That’s what war does to men, sometimes, probably not that often, I fear.
Somebody online with a military background once remarked about the safest he’s ever felt, including in civilian life, was when he was in some tent in a war zone with the rest of the platoon, everyone in their sleeping bags, crammed in the tent together like a litter of kittens in a box. Sure, they were in the death zone, for real, but he was warm and snug, surrounded by armed badasses who would come to his aid at once if anything nasty went down. He said he slept like a baby, that he’s never felt that sense of security since, not even safe in bed as a civilian, later.
It means a lot to me that this book, TLOR, was pretty much written by the Great War. Tolkien went to that war, against his own will, compelled by shame campaigns, not even the law, in spite of his own convictions, and he did not have some safe posting at the base, no, he was at the Somme. He saw the worst of it, probably missed death by inches several times, saw mud and blood, was deafened and battered, only to survive at last, coming home as changed as Frodo.
He watched men charge into machine guns like mice into a blender, watched them die of trench foot and the stupid ways war kills you without even glory or honor to show for it, saw that sometimes courage is just hiding in your little hole and not screaming when the tanks roll over. He saw Mordor in person. No man’s land.
Then he came home, and did he write some edgy darkness? No. He wrote this thing, this fantasy, with its message of hope that evil can be vanquished, and that men can be good, yes, even when they seem utterly lost to goodness. This is somehow the lesson that the War to End All Wars had taught him. He had nothing left to prove, so he made a pretty, frivolous thing, for children, but couldn’t help it, he couldn’t help making something bigger than that. He knew how intimate men become with each other under fire, and it ended up in the book.
That is the only thing he wanted to remember, that unexpected love when suffering and death are right on top of you. I wonder who Legolas was to him? Somebody young and beautiful, who deserved to live a thousand years, but didn’t, probably. They shall not grow old.
We shouldn’t need the machine guns coming at us to hug our friends, that’s probably what he wanted the world to know.
Beautifully written and thank you for providing this insight. I have not been to war so it can be easy to miss the nuances
lotr nerds are the worst
You’re the worst.
Whoa, this comment thread is wild. Sorry to those who have to deal with shame. I also don’t like being hugged or kissed, but that’s true regardless of their gender. That said, you should be allowed to cry, and you should at least be allowed to express your feelings. It’s not a sign of weakness, and if anything, a sign of bravery.
But, reading your comments, grateful to not have a wife who judges my masculinity. I still gotta do my part around the house and stay respectful, but if I needed to vent over a bad day, she’s all ears. Thanks for that.
The fellowship, especially the human members were made up of aristocrats doing things for honor and Valor. But most humans in 4th age me were living in squalor, a shell of a former great empire and people. Even the movies did a decent job of showing the distrust, violence and squalor and curruptability of average men.
All that said yes show less toxicity and more role model responses to hard situations is a good idea. But drama sells.
Excuse me? Doing it for honor and valor?
They were doing it to save middle earth from a tyrant who would have enslaved everyone under his rule.
That was one of Tolkien’s concepts, that a king should protect his people and lead by example. There is no battle in which Aragorn didn’t lead from the front.
The 4th age was one of peace and prosperity. Please share the source for the peoples of middle earth living in squalor.
If a king can’t protect and take care of his people then they are better off without him, that’s what got heads rolling around Europe at a certain point
Well you definitely right about the motivation. I guess my thoughts were 1. all the elves could have just bailed on ME but some stuck around. 2. Aragon in the books always intended on being king and was further motivated by elronds requirement to marry his daughter so as much as he may have done it to lead from the front it was still a game of houses. 3. Overall you absolutely right about the forth being prosperous i had the industrialisation of bag end in mind in particular. Yes sams family fixes it over 3 generations and it was 1 town trading with sauromon, but it def was the exploitative example I thought of. 4.Other than the wizard and hobbits it was all nobility in the fellowship etc… last is the “height of humanity” were the early numenorians so what was left of civilization by the lotr saga anyway was diminished
Thanks for checking my generalization I should be more careful not to twist tokens intent
No worries. I appreciate you coming back to reiterate and elaborate on your thoughts. And having a civil discourse on Tolkien.
I just want to add on some details about Aragorn for those coming to know more.
That whilst he did intend to reclaim the throne, the way he went about it was about as noble and selflessly as possible. He didn’t do it by conquering or by force. He did it by proving he was worthy of being king. He rescued Gondor from certain destruction. He healed people " the hands of the king are the hands of a healer. " Then when he finally does reclaim it, he ruled in a way basically the opposite of the last millennium of rulership. And worked to undo a thousand years or more of gradual decay.
“Kings made tombs more splendid than the houses of the living and counted the names of their descent dearer than the names of their sons.”
Beautifully said. And honestly I kind of forgot about this and its a major theme. I got prrtty hung up on magic leaving/dying and the fact there were still humans like the haradrim or Easterling. I think aaragon made peace with them? I really dont know how I managed to not weight his reign with more importance, guess it shows my own bias pessimism. He was basically the perfect archetype and all the symbolism of him planting the 4th tree, etc making him more a messiah than hungry for power. I didnt really think he purged humanity of sin though … did he ever go so far to suggest that?
Yeah he was borderlining on messiah-ish but I think given Tolkien’s distaste for allegories, he didn’t want to make any character too messianic.
My reading of Aragorn is not of a messianic figure, but more of an example of what a true leader should strive towards. He left no one behind, " we will not abandon merry and pippin to torment and death." He knew when things were beyond him, parting ways with Frodo, knowing he would eventually be a risk to Frodo. Most of all, putting his kingship for the betterment of the people.
I think it resonates even louder for me now because of the current geo-political situation.
Please, I don’t accept hugs. I dont want kisses. Please, don’t touch me. There are plenty of other ways to show affection, I can do that, but please, do not touch me, I dont like it.
Nobody should force a hug or a kiss on anyone. As I replied to another commenter on here, as soon as he waved me off I dropped it and did not make an issue out of it. I respect your boundaries. If you don’t want to be hugged, kissed, or touched that is 100% OK and nobody should pressure you into it, ever.
But try to understand that in the vast majority human relationships, hugs and the like are considered normal, healthy behavior. They are not considered a “creepy attack from a creepy creep”. I’m not talking about random strangers copping a feel here. I’m talking about close friends and family.
Human touch is very, very important. Read up on Harry Harlow’s monkey experiments.
I’m fairly convinced the lack of touch and general warmth in our culture is one reason we all hate and mistrust each other. I realize causes and symptoms get blurry in this arena (correlation vs causation and all of that) but it’s fairly obvious people aren’t giving or getting enough love and affection in their lives. There’s so much hostility, repression, and isolating going on.
I’m talking about close friends and family.
My family hugged me when I was a small child. I’m an adult and I still haven’t fully recovered.
I know this is a joke but my dad was excessively touchy and huggy when I was growing up and it’s the reason I hate hugs now.
It’s not a joke, I am dead serious. I just phrased something unusual as if it were normal because I don’t believe in upholding neurotypical norms.
That’s a pretty Westernized view - it’s absolutely NOT a cultural norm to give close friends of either gender hugs in most Asian cultures. This includes societies that are very Westernized like Taiwan. It doesn’t make people any less friendly or emotionally vulnerable- but hugging is something we just don’t do.
Cultural norms can be good or bad. There are plenty of bad norms in the US. I won’t speak to Asia’s norms, and wasn’t talking about Asia. I was talking about my own culture in the US. Perhaps people in Asia have other wholesome ways of expressing these things. Or perhaps Asia’s cultures are damaged and damaging like my home’s culture is. I don’t know.
But your comparison feels like whataboutism and deflection. Humans wanting to touch and to be touched in non-sexual ways isn’t weird or shameful. That’s what I’m addressing here.
Humans not wanting to be touched is OK, too. I’m not advocating for nonconsensual hugging or touching.
What’s weird to me is how even discussing it brings out instant defensiveness in some folks, which is kind of proving the point that I am trying to make.
No shaming at all! But I think it’s important to recognize that not all cultures express affection the same way.
One very poignant scene I remember well was when a Disney exec met the famous Japanese director Hiyao Miyazaki for the first time. The American exec rushed forward to hug them and I remember thinking that Miyazaki may have felt pretty uncomfortable with that. As an Asian American that spends a lot of time in both cultures I find that Americans tend to (for lack of a better word) impose their cultural norms on others - either through well meaning ignorance or cultural chauvinism I don’t know.
(Note: I tried to reply to this comment but it got put into the main thread. Copying and pasting here for visibility, apologies for duplicate post)
Is that for everyone or just people outside of your comfort group?
I ask because a stranger touching me is very likely to draw back a figurative nub, but I love touch from my people. I’m kinda anti-kiss post covid, but I’m a hugger still lol.
I feel you though, everyone gets to have boundaries, and it isn’t a rejection of affection to prefer non touch methods of showing it.
You get to express yourself in a healthier masculine way in Middle Earth because you’re not worried about fucking driving an hour to work and back to make some asshole rich while you worry about if you’re going to eat next week, all the while trying to numb your senses with substances and stave off the fear that at any time, an illness could ruin you and your family financially and put you on the street. At least in ME, the existential problems men face are quantifiable: there’s an orc that wants to kill me, etc.
Capitalism makes you emotionally unavailable? What?
My dear, I don’t think that’s the problem here
Try reading “The Way We Never Were”. While capitalism isn’t the cause, it’s certainly a contributor in the whole idea of men not needing anyone, men being sole provider, separating men from the tribes that gave them that emotional or physical support…not just men but women too.
Okay, I’ll admit, in a 2 sentence blurb, the connection might not seem “all there” but yes. Yes, the toxic world that is based in capitalism, our current paradigm and the one we’re comparing to LOTR, dividing and conquering people along arbitrary lines all the while we’re scrambling to get as much money as possible in order to fulfill some 60 year old notion about what being a man or what being a woman means, yes that turns people toxic and we express ourselves in toxic manners because of it.
Identify a problem you see with modern men and I can probably boil that point down to how it’s capitalism motivated.
Side note: certain places in LOTR resemble real world medieval feudalism, such as Gondor. You’ll note how toxic men from Gondor are. The economic system that drives us influences our behavior.
My interpretation was always that distance to the enemy determines your pov. Shire was furthest, easy and laid back. Gondor is practically frontline, so some characters were more pragmatic and Machiavellian.
Rn I am speaking only about FOTR.
Fuck you I’m poor and angry
If capitalism is about competition, then the need to divide and display individual strength are characteristics reinforced by capitalism.
Hey dol! merry dol! ring a dong dillo!
Ring a dong! hop along! fal lal the willow!
Tom Bom, jolly Tom, Tom Bombadillo!
Ah. He was a merry fellow.
I hear his jacket is bright blue.
Boots are yellow, if I recall correctly.
bars
Wait…you don’t kiss your bro’s forehead and hug!?
Yeah it’s not cause youre naked together in the same bed that you can’t kiss forheads and hug. It’s not gay.
Like even if he put a finger in it’s not even like that
Nothing more masculine than sharing heat in cold conditions.
That’s what I was thinking, extremeties get cold too but apparently people disagree
There was a TV show called Moonhaven where men were a bit more like this. It was cancelled after 1 season, of course.
Oh wow, Moonhaven sounds like an interesting show, even just for the approach to “utopia”. Thanks for the tip!
With a hobbit on the cast!
No shaming at all! But I think it’s important to recognize that not all cultures express affection the same way.
One very poignant scene I remember well was when a Disney exec met the famous Japanese director Hiyao Miyazaki for the first time. The American exec rushed forward to hug them and I remember thinking that Miyazaki may have felt pretty uncomfortable with that. As an Asian American that spends a lot of time in both cultures I find that Americans tend to (for lack of a better word) impose their cultural norms on others - either through well meaning ignorance or cultural chauvinism I don’t know.
Edit - replying to Boozilla. Not sure if it worked.
well meaning ignorance or cultural chauvinism
A bit of both, I think.
