I definitely feel like this in an entire simplication of an issue.
It’s just the old “someone does something wrong they are entirely to blame” fallacy. Or the old standby of “men are to blame for this”
I definitely feel they have some accurate readings on the world. Girls do fuck around with a small group of men who have an abnormal amount of partners, then settle years later when shes not as desirable. Girls do get to go for athletic guys, if you’re an arsehole it will get you places in life including with girls, girls only like boys that are tall and will tell that to everyone. (I genuinely think this is one of the worst everyday norms in society. Tell short men he would be attractive if he was tall is okay eventhough they can’t change it. But saying a fat girl would be hotter if she lost weight is awful, eventhough she can control that).
I’m lucky that I must have been at least somewhat in the top half of men 6ft+, good at sports, good in school, somehow I can be charismatic and funny eventhough I have wondered if I got autism. But I can definitely see the system. I can definitely agree with some of the points people have made online and see the horrible ways guys have been treated and see that people have it worse than I do.
So I don’t think they are fully to blame for all this. Some of it is society degrading, some of it is increasing competition, some of it unrealistic expecting from women, some of it is that “men are to blame” and “women are innocent” in all matters, and some of it is actually they need to sort their shit out. But putting it all on the last point and acting like they are mental isn’t right, they have a point and need to deal with it better but society also needs to treat men and boys better. Young white men in the UK are worse of than anyone when it comes to careers but you will constantly see everyone being given a leg up instead of young white males, even white males can’t apply for some jobs.
My personal opinion is we need to bring back men and boys only spaces. The best and most supportive times, where I got the most growth where in boys only clubs like scouts and the rugby club. But when you get older unless you got a guy only friendship group this doesn’t exist. I think it is a requirement for most guys mental health.
Taking from that article
" incel mental health was “through the floor”, with 20% having daily thoughts of suicide and high levels of loneliness.
In addition, he said a quarter would be offered immediate antidepressants or therapy if they completed an NHS depression screening form"
Men are lonely. I know let’s drug them. This is the point, why not advocate for some men only socialising. Plus my problems with girls was helped a lot from other guys. Guys still have to be the ones to initiate with women and my social anxiety was so high. But having you friends saying “go on. She’s looking at you. Go talk to her. Stop being a fucking pussy and just do it” Then if you get pushed back you get the “aw don’t worry about it mate, it happens to us all. Have a beer, you’ll feel better. I thought you was in, but fuck it you’ll get someone else” that support from men is I think the only thing that allowed me to talk to women as more than just friends.
You have very aptly demonstrated the core problem with the incel worldview: that women are somehow fundamentally different from men to the point that they are women first, and barely human.
The Venn diagram of traits of women and men is almost a completely overlapping circle. They aren’t some alien species with different fundamental needs, drives, and capabilities.
The problem with men-only spaces isn’t that they are only men. It is that they have been used historically to bar women from participating in things that would give them power.
You don’t need to exclude women to give men access to male friendships. It’s just that men are unused to having to work for emotional things when women are present. It’s time for them to take initiative and learn to treat women like human beings instead of objectives.
I think your core problem is that just because women are different you think that must mean they are somehow less valuable.
It is a completely reasonable position to think most men are different to most women at least in some ways.
To think the way men bond and the way women bond to be the same is completely misguided. Sure you could do it the same and you could have relationship that are built the same. But I haven’t roughhoused with my female friend or called them half the things I called my male friends.
Historical issues are no reflection of present issues. So if men need something, doesnt have to be this in particular but assuming they do need something, if women have indirectly suffered from it now men are not allowed that ever again? Why do women get women only places but men can’t, if we are so equal as you make out?
I don’t know why you are making out women are treated like objects. That is not the case at all you just pulled that out your arse to try win an argument. I’ve been friends with boys and girls my entire life. Just had female friends, had mixed groups and had men only friendship groups. The men only friendship groups have been a lot different and a lot more supportive so I think men need them. But apparently men needing anything in life is a crime. See how the incels are right with some things?
Women can roughhouse to bond. They do it all the time. But that isn’t what I’m talking about, and you know it. Apparently having female friends hasn’t taught you much about broader dynamics of women’s issues.
Women get women only places to be SAFE from men, not because they can’t handle men having access to power. The premise is very different. For example, I’d have no problem with men having male-only gyms if they were so afraid of being sexually attacked by women they couldn’t work out in peace.
The problem isn’t men needing anything, so you can take that poor pity cap off and get out of the corner. The problem is men expecting everyone else to supply them with what they need because any other option doesn’t even cross their mind.
If you seriously think women aren’t largely treated as objectives, your head is so far in the sand, there’s no hope of me digging it out. Good luck to you.
They can roughhouse to bond, but they don’t generally, not as much as boys. Also girls and boys don’t roughhouse as well together because guys are much stronger and go a lot further.
You are massively over exaggerating the rate of men on women crime in a gym. That low rate isn’t reason enough.
This is the problem you can’t see men need anything. That’s the whole point! That’s it right there, you just keep proving my point. All you can see is women need x so that must mean men need nothing. That’s not fair. I haven’t once stated women don’t need anything, I have nothing against women having female only spaces but in the spirit of equality men should equally have their own private spaces because they need them too. This is why there are women’s only refuges for domestic violence but when one gets set up for men it gets protestors outside of it and it get closed down. Men aren’t allowed anything they need.
No I don’t think women are largely treated as objects you just got a victim complex. Women can be and are treated as objects but not largely. I am also able to see that is a problem in society, but unlike you I’m also able to see that men have issues in society which is an incomprehensible concept to you for some reason.
I definitely feel like this in an entire simplication of an issue.
It’s just the old “someone does something wrong they are entirely to blame” fallacy. Or the old standby of “men are to blame for this”
I definitely feel they have some accurate readings on the world. Girls do fuck around with a small group of men who have an abnormal amount of partners, then settle years later when shes not as desirable. Girls do get to go for athletic guys, if you’re an arsehole it will get you places in life including with girls, girls only like boys that are tall and will tell that to everyone. (I genuinely think this is one of the worst everyday norms in society. Tell short men he would be attractive if he was tall is okay eventhough they can’t change it. But saying a fat girl would be hotter if she lost weight is awful, eventhough she can control that).
I’m lucky that I must have been at least somewhat in the top half of men 6ft+, good at sports, good in school, somehow I can be charismatic and funny eventhough I have wondered if I got autism. But I can definitely see the system. I can definitely agree with some of the points people have made online and see the horrible ways guys have been treated and see that people have it worse than I do.
So I don’t think they are fully to blame for all this. Some of it is society degrading, some of it is increasing competition, some of it unrealistic expecting from women, some of it is that “men are to blame” and “women are innocent” in all matters, and some of it is actually they need to sort their shit out. But putting it all on the last point and acting like they are mental isn’t right, they have a point and need to deal with it better but society also needs to treat men and boys better. Young white men in the UK are worse of than anyone when it comes to careers but you will constantly see everyone being given a leg up instead of young white males, even white males can’t apply for some jobs.
My personal opinion is we need to bring back men and boys only spaces. The best and most supportive times, where I got the most growth where in boys only clubs like scouts and the rugby club. But when you get older unless you got a guy only friendship group this doesn’t exist. I think it is a requirement for most guys mental health.
Taking from that article
Men are lonely. I know let’s drug them. This is the point, why not advocate for some men only socialising. Plus my problems with girls was helped a lot from other guys. Guys still have to be the ones to initiate with women and my social anxiety was so high. But having you friends saying “go on. She’s looking at you. Go talk to her. Stop being a fucking pussy and just do it” Then if you get pushed back you get the “aw don’t worry about it mate, it happens to us all. Have a beer, you’ll feel better. I thought you was in, but fuck it you’ll get someone else” that support from men is I think the only thing that allowed me to talk to women as more than just friends.
You have very aptly demonstrated the core problem with the incel worldview: that women are somehow fundamentally different from men to the point that they are women first, and barely human.
The Venn diagram of traits of women and men is almost a completely overlapping circle. They aren’t some alien species with different fundamental needs, drives, and capabilities.
The problem with men-only spaces isn’t that they are only men. It is that they have been used historically to bar women from participating in things that would give them power.
You don’t need to exclude women to give men access to male friendships. It’s just that men are unused to having to work for emotional things when women are present. It’s time for them to take initiative and learn to treat women like human beings instead of objectives.
I think your core problem is that just because women are different you think that must mean they are somehow less valuable.
It is a completely reasonable position to think most men are different to most women at least in some ways.
To think the way men bond and the way women bond to be the same is completely misguided. Sure you could do it the same and you could have relationship that are built the same. But I haven’t roughhoused with my female friend or called them half the things I called my male friends.
Historical issues are no reflection of present issues. So if men need something, doesnt have to be this in particular but assuming they do need something, if women have indirectly suffered from it now men are not allowed that ever again? Why do women get women only places but men can’t, if we are so equal as you make out?
I don’t know why you are making out women are treated like objects. That is not the case at all you just pulled that out your arse to try win an argument. I’ve been friends with boys and girls my entire life. Just had female friends, had mixed groups and had men only friendship groups. The men only friendship groups have been a lot different and a lot more supportive so I think men need them. But apparently men needing anything in life is a crime. See how the incels are right with some things?
Women can roughhouse to bond. They do it all the time. But that isn’t what I’m talking about, and you know it. Apparently having female friends hasn’t taught you much about broader dynamics of women’s issues.
Women get women only places to be SAFE from men, not because they can’t handle men having access to power. The premise is very different. For example, I’d have no problem with men having male-only gyms if they were so afraid of being sexually attacked by women they couldn’t work out in peace.
The problem isn’t men needing anything, so you can take that poor pity cap off and get out of the corner. The problem is men expecting everyone else to supply them with what they need because any other option doesn’t even cross their mind.
If you seriously think women aren’t largely treated as objectives, your head is so far in the sand, there’s no hope of me digging it out. Good luck to you.
They can roughhouse to bond, but they don’t generally, not as much as boys. Also girls and boys don’t roughhouse as well together because guys are much stronger and go a lot further.
You are massively over exaggerating the rate of men on women crime in a gym. That low rate isn’t reason enough.
This is the problem you can’t see men need anything. That’s the whole point! That’s it right there, you just keep proving my point. All you can see is women need x so that must mean men need nothing. That’s not fair. I haven’t once stated women don’t need anything, I have nothing against women having female only spaces but in the spirit of equality men should equally have their own private spaces because they need them too. This is why there are women’s only refuges for domestic violence but when one gets set up for men it gets protestors outside of it and it get closed down. Men aren’t allowed anything they need.
No I don’t think women are largely treated as objects you just got a victim complex. Women can be and are treated as objects but not largely. I am also able to see that is a problem in society, but unlike you I’m also able to see that men have issues in society which is an incomprehensible concept to you for some reason.