Refreshing to see someone here write an actual argument instead of hurdling insults.
I agree, you can’t compare gulags to the Nazi concentration camps. In 2 days, some 21 thousand Estonians were taken to gulags in Siberia, which was roughly 3% of Estonia’s then population. Around 3 thousand of them perished on those camps before they started letting people return home in '56. However, the fact that it was arguably less deadly than the holocaust, does not make it any more acceptable, it was not a good thing, it was cruelty, so many innocent people.
I agree with you on some level, the soviet union was not all bad, there were good things as well, such as the availability of housing. My grandma actually lived (until recently due to health issues) in one of the apartments she got in the soviet union because she was a crane operator like my uncle and helped build Annelinn.
I appreciate the politeness and take that as a signal of good faith so I’ll respond to you with good faith too.
The problem with the “horrible gulags, all those innocent nationalists imprisoned after WW2” thing is that
It’s called the “double genocide” theory which is an emotional argument trying to tie the German atrocities with the Soviet system in an emotional way.
Estonia was not simply occupied by the Nazis, it was occupied so it’s not the same as Hungary but it wasn’t like Poland either. There were many collaborators. Given the scale probably there was some injustice but to pretend the post-WW2 cleaning up after fascism wasn’t part of that is also denial. It’s wrong to pretend they were simply nationalists or that they were being forced to participate in the Holocaust of Jews and Slavs against their will. A great number actively participated and part of the problem with this nationalist victim narrative you’re embracing is that it seeks to obscure and deny or at least forget that fact and pretend they were nothing more than victims, innocents. Probably some were, it was rough justice in a chaotic time, but collaborating with the Nazis by Estonians wasn’t forced and was often enthusiastic. Denying that is also Holocaust denial.
Going case by individual case probably you’ll find some injustice but 3% being collaborators in need of processing and denazification is entirely believable. If only the west had been that thorough in denazifying west Germany.
Refreshing to see someone here write an actual argument instead of hurdling insults.
Shut the fuck up, you aggrieved piece of shit. This is what they were responding to:
I’m a leftist, but I dont understand why people keep dickriding the soviet union, people were poor and a lot of people were killed and sent to Siberia, like my grand uncles. Most people who praise the soviet union never lived it.
Stop defending a fake socialist state that is long gone, and work towards a better future according to your ideologies!
i.e., low-effort flaming, and you talk like it’s unthinkable people would respond in kind. Do you often make a habit of lecturing strangers on politeness after you walk up and spit on them?
In the eyes of liberal historiographers, every criminal in the USSR, every fascist collaborator, every petty-bourgeois tyrant becomes a victimized innocent who Stalin personally killed because he had a Tourette Syndrome where his tics were murder and kidnapping. There is no other reason anyone could possibly be put by the government in a place they wouldn’t like to be in the context of a civil war or a genocidal invasion.
Go fuck yourself, go back to masturbating about syndicates and, on the off-off chance that you succeed, prepare to have ten million other shitheads like you declare that you aren’t a real socialist because anticommunists told them you aren’t.
Most people praise the Soviet Union never lived in it because the vast, vast majority of people who commented on it never lived in it. Most people who attack it never lived in it by the same token. However, most of the people who lived in it for any meaningful length of time praise it, as survey after survey produces (see other responses in this thread).
21 thousand Estonians were taken to gulags in Siberia
You can’t criticize this without asking “well why were they sent away?” It’s like criticizing anyone else who’s been imprisoned without asking “well what did they do?”
There were (and are) fascist sympathizers in Estonia. Fascist sympathizers all over Europe worked directly with the Nazis. What would you have done with those sympathizers if fascists declared a genocidal war on the socialist state you’re in charge of? Did the WWII-era USSR have the resources to do your better plan?
Refreshing to see someone here write an actual argument instead of hurdling insults.
I agree, you can’t compare gulags to the Nazi concentration camps. In 2 days, some 21 thousand Estonians were taken to gulags in Siberia, which was roughly 3% of Estonia’s then population. Around 3 thousand of them perished on those camps before they started letting people return home in '56. However, the fact that it was arguably less deadly than the holocaust, does not make it any more acceptable, it was not a good thing, it was cruelty, so many innocent people.
I agree with you on some level, the soviet union was not all bad, there were good things as well, such as the availability of housing. My grandma actually lived (until recently due to health issues) in one of the apartments she got in the soviet union because she was a crane operator like my uncle and helped build Annelinn.
I appreciate the politeness and take that as a signal of good faith so I’ll respond to you with good faith too.
The problem with the “horrible gulags, all those innocent nationalists imprisoned after WW2” thing is that
Going case by individual case probably you’ll find some injustice but 3% being collaborators in need of processing and denazification is entirely believable. If only the west had been that thorough in denazifying west Germany.
Shut the fuck up, you aggrieved piece of shit. This is what they were responding to:
i.e., low-effort flaming, and you talk like it’s unthinkable people would respond in kind. Do you often make a habit of lecturing strangers on politeness after you walk up and spit on them?
In the eyes of liberal historiographers, every criminal in the USSR, every fascist collaborator, every petty-bourgeois tyrant becomes a victimized innocent who Stalin personally killed because he had a Tourette Syndrome where his tics were murder and kidnapping. There is no other reason anyone could possibly be put by the government in a place they wouldn’t like to be in the context of a civil war or a genocidal invasion.
Go fuck yourself, go back to masturbating about syndicates and, on the off-off chance that you succeed, prepare to have ten million other shitheads like you declare that you aren’t a real socialist because anticommunists told them you aren’t.
Most people praise the Soviet Union never lived in it because the vast, vast majority of people who commented on it never lived in it. Most people who attack it never lived in it by the same token. However, most of the people who lived in it for any meaningful length of time praise it, as survey after survey produces (see other responses in this thread).
You can’t criticize this without asking “well why were they sent away?” It’s like criticizing anyone else who’s been imprisoned without asking “well what did they do?”
There were (and are) fascist sympathizers in Estonia. Fascist sympathizers all over Europe worked directly with the Nazis. What would you have done with those sympathizers if fascists declared a genocidal war on the socialist state you’re in charge of? Did the WWII-era USSR have the resources to do your better plan?
Wow I wonder why Estonians who collaborated with Nazis were arrested
Fuck off smuglord