Note by Hamish McKenzie on Substack
substack.com
Hi everyone. Chris, Jairaj, and I wanted to let you know that we’ve heard and have been listening to all the views being expressed about how Substack should think about the presence of fringe voices on the platform (and particularly, in this case, Nazi views).  I just want to make it clear that we don’t like Nazis either—we wish no-one held those views. But some people do hold those and other extreme views. Given that, we don't think that censorship (including through demonetizing publications) makes the problem go away—in fact, it makes it worse. We believe that supporting individual rights and civil liberties while subjecting ideas to open discourse is the best way to strip bad ideas of their power. We are committed to upholding and protecting freedom of expression, even when it hurts. As @Ted Gioia has noted, history shows that censorship is most potently used by the powerful to silence the powerless. (Ted’s note: https://substack.com/profile/4937458-ted-gioia/note/c-45421012)  Our content guidelines do have narrowly defined proscriptions, including a clause that prohibits incitements to violence. We will continue to actively enforce those rules while offering tools that let readers curate their own experiences and opt in to their preferred communities. Beyond that, we will stick to our decentralized approach to content moderation, which gives power to readers and writers. While not everyone agrees with this approach, many people do, as indicated by @Elle Griffin’s post in defense of decentralized moderation on Substack, which was signed and endorsed by hundreds of writers on the platform, including some of the leading names in journalism, literature, and academia (see Elle’s post below). Even if we were in a minority of one, however, we would still believe in these principles.  There also remains a criticism that Substack is promoting these fringe voices. This criticism appears to stem from my decision to host Richard Hanania, who was later outed as having once published extreme and racist views, on my podcast, The Active Voice. I didn’t know of those past writings at the time, and Hanania went on to disavow those views. While it has been uncomfortable and I probably would have done things differently with all the information in front of me, I ultimately don’t regret having him on the podcast. I think it’s important to engage with and understand a range of views even if—especially if—you disagree with them. Hanania is an influential voice for some in U.S. politics—his recent book, for instance, was published by HarperCollins—and there is value in knowing his arguments. The same applies to all other guests I have hosted on The Active Voice, including Hanania’s political opposites.  We don’t expect everyone to agree with our approach and policies, and we believe it’s helpful for there to be continued robust debate of these issues. Six years into Substack, however, we have been encouraged by the quality of discourse on the platform. As Elle said in her letter: “We are still trying to figure out the best way to handle extremism on the internet. But of all the ways we’ve tried so far, Substack is working the best.” Thanks for listening, and for caring, and thanks to everyone who publishes on Substack. We are here to serve you and will continue to do our very best in that mission.

The day just isn’t complete without a tiresome retread of freeze peach rhetorical tropes. Oh, it’s “important to engage with and understand” white supremacy. That’s why we need to boost the voices of white supremacists! And give them money!

  • swlabr@awful.systemsEnglish
    32·
    11 months ago

    Basically: “If we don’t platform the nazis, where will all the hard earned nazi money go?”

  • thesmokingman@programming.devEnglish
    31·
    11 months ago

    What fucking data do they show that deplatforming and demonetizing makes extremist views worse?

    we don’t think that censorship (including through demonetizing publications) makes the problem go away—in fact, it makes it worse

    Last I remember, actively demonetizing fringe views like Alex Jones damn near killed their reach. And quarantining on Reddit completely nuked organic reach which was, for a long time, how crazy shit was reaching people.

    history shows that censorship is most potently used by the powerful to silence the powerless

    In what fucking world do the powerful care about the powerless nazis. What fucking world. Didn’t we fucking fight a world war about this. It’s really fucking cliche to say but holy fuck why the fuck would the powerful ever care about censoring the powerless nazis.

    I think it’s important to engage with and understand a range of views even if—especially if—you disagree with them

    Shit dude the owner of Substack is not engaging with my view that he’s a fucking witless dishcloth. Kinda hypocritical amirite

    • ArbiterXero@lemmy.worldEnglish
      20·
      11 months ago

      The idea that removing someone’s platform makes things worse is just insane.

      It’s not silencing them, it’s just removing their reach to spread their horseshit.

      • thesmokingman@programming.devEnglish
        13·
        11 months ago

        It’s not even removing someone’s platform when they’re using your platform to spread their message. Cutting off their internet? That’s deplatforming. Throttling their bandwidth? That’s fucking with their access to utilities (internet should be a utility). Kicking them off your privately-owned site they don’t have a majority ownership stake in? If that’s deplatforming you’re admitting your platform is all about the Nazis.

        I do not understand these mental gymnastics tech bros go through.

        • bitofhope@awful.systemsEnglish
          15·
          11 months ago

          I’m not sure when deplatforming became a dirty word in the first place. Freedom of speech doesn’t entitle anyone to a platform. It’s not a crime to express whatever views you have, but you may need to bring your own soapbox.

          Or maybe deplatforming is bad and an affront to freedom of expression. If that is the case, I will let you know on the next episode of Joe Rogan. If I’m not invited, consider me silenced by the cancel culture mob.

          • David Gerard@awful.systemsMEnglish
            14·
            11 months ago

            I’m not sure when deplatforming became a dirty word in the first place.

            when it started happening to these guys, duh

        • sc_griffith@awful.systemsEnglish
          8·
          11 months ago

          I’m fully in favor of kicking nazis off of wherever specifically because doing so is censorship, deplatforming, etc, so gotta disagree with you there

          • thesmokingman@programming.devEnglish
            9·
            11 months ago

            It sounds like we only disagree on the specific word we use to describe the act of removing someone from a website so that’s an okay disagreement!

  • David Gerard@awful.systemsMEnglish
    26·
    11 months ago

    Loved the Verge summary. From the subheader:

    Substack co-founder Hamish McKenzie’s plan to ‘strip bad ideas of their power’ is to profit from disseminating them as widely as possible.

    https://www.theverge.com/2023/12/21/24011232/substack-nazi-moderation-demonetization-hamish-mckenzie

    Note that Substack quite deliberately went out and hired on the furthest-right voices it thought it could get away with, and paid them massive advances. One reason for Substack’s present financial woes is that a lot of these guys didn’t work out. Our good friend Scooter is one who did, for example. In fact, he was the first to reveal that Substack was recruiting and paying these guys massive advances, while they were still telling the rest of the world that you could just sign up and make a newsletter and money would rain from the skies without mentioning that all Substack’s big successes were being funded and promoted by Substack.

    Substack was founded by a chud and funded by chuds, and this is well known. Nobody ever really had an excuse.

  • blakestacey@awful.systemsOPEnglish
    23·
    11 months ago

    I don’t need to read Substack to understand how these people think. I just need to picture the worst people I went to high school with.

    • 800XL@lemmy.worldEnglish
      7·
      11 months ago

      Sadly, thanks to the advent of social media all those people that just would have faded into oblivion now find each other and others like themselves and make everything about them once again.

    • clearleaf@lemmy.worldEnglish
      62·
      11 months ago

      You don’t even know how well you just described online political discussion.

  • sc_griffith@awful.systemsEnglish
    22·
    11 months ago

    We are still trying to figure out the best way to handle extremism on the internet. But of all the ways we’ve tried so far, Substack is working the best.

    All of this is contemptible but for some reason this quote he pulls is the worst bit to me. It’s so pompous and so arrogant for a tech bro to describe his Nazi funding company as “a way of handling extremism on the internet.” Not even something his company does. Just his company, existing

    • 200fifty@awful.systemsEnglish
      15·
      11 months ago

      of all the ways we’ve tried so far, Substack is working the best.

      The sheer arrogance of this quote is really something to behold. It’s “working the best” by what metric, exactly, sir? And who’s the “we” that have tried various ways so far, because it’s certainly not ‘people on the internet,’ many of whom have developed ways of dealing with Nazis which are significantly more effective than the substack method of ‘literally give them money to use our platform’

    • self@awful.systemsEnglish
      10·
      11 months ago

      But of all the ways we’ve tried so far, Substack is working the best.

      the fucking neoliberal stank on being this loud and proud about consistently doing nothing about nazis

      …is what I’d say if this piece of shit wasn’t fucking paying them in direct proportion to how effectively they’ve spread their Nazi shit onto the internet using his terrible fucking blogging platform

      god fucking damn I am so tired of these mediocre men controlling every popular part of the internet. when the fuck did it become no longer normal to just ban fascist fuckheads and all their friends on sight? nah I know the answer: when someone realized there was money in catering to the worst fucking people on the planet

    • Steve@awful.systemsEnglish
      8·
      11 months ago

      that is the cuntiest tech quote I’ve heard in a while. “Of all the things we’ve tried so far…” as if he invented the gated community he probably grew up in,

  • MajorHavoc@lemmy.worldEnglish
    20·
    11 months ago

    I learned from my grandfather that bullets were the answer to Nazis.

    I’m not a traditionalist, but I don’t think there’s any moral reason to let confirmed Nazis speak freely, or spend a lot of time not full of bullets.

    Yes, there’s plenty of legal reasons. But anyone claiming moral reasons is full of shit.

    • LophostemonEnglish
      52·
      11 months ago

      Pretty sure Jesus would agree with you.

        • LophostemonEnglish
          17·
          11 months ago

          Just a point of hair-splitting; can they be literal Nazis if the ‘party’ was a thing of the past and a different country? Are they perhaps ‘neo-Nazis’?

          Not arguing, just curious.

            • LophostemonEnglish
              13·
              11 months ago

              Ok. Fine. They are Nazis.

              Where are the bullets?

              • self@awful.systemsEnglish
                7·
                11 months ago

                the bullets, guns, and training to use both effectively are overwhelmingly in the hands of fascists, some of whom outwardly self-identify as nazis

                • LophostemonEnglish
                  13·
                  11 months ago

                  Mmmm. I’m not entirely sure about that. But for the sake of a lack of argument, I’ll agree with you.

          • self@awful.systemsEnglish
            7·
            11 months ago

            you’ve put more thought into categorizing nazis than the people calling themselves nazis have

  • bitofhope@awful.systemsEnglish
    19·
    11 months ago

    Food, housing, clothes, education, healthcare and leisure? You don’t deserve them for just being born.

    A Substack account, though? That is your inalienable God-given right as an existing human being.

  • Sailor Sega Saturn@awful.systemsEnglish
    15·
    11 months ago

    I think it’s important to engage with and understand a range of views even if—especially if—you disagree with them. Hanania is an influential voice for some in U.S. politics—his recent book, for instance, was published by HarperCollins—and there is value in knowing his arguments.

    “Wait wait hold on guys, this abhorrent fascist genocidal white supremacist transphobic sexist holocaust denying Nazi was published by Harper Collins. Harper. Collins. That means there is value in hearing his perspective on my podcast!”

  • thesporkeffect@lemmy.worldEnglish
    12·
    11 months ago

    “I just want to make it clear that we don’t like Nazis either—we wish no-one held those views.”

    Hamish’s “nazis are not my favorite” T-shirt has people asking a lot of questions already answered by the T-shirt

  • skillissuer@discuss.tchncs.deEnglish
    6·
    11 months ago

    We are committed to upholding and protecting freedom of expression, even when it hurts. As @Ted Gioia has noted, history shows that censorship is most potently used by the powerful to silence the powerless

    oh no, where these wittle powerless nazis will go? they are only backed by the likes of Thiel and Malofeev

    Organizations who try to silence and censor writers are the ones who have a real Nazi problem.

    you see, the real nazis were antifa all along

    As Elle said in her letter: “We are still trying to figure out the best way to handle extremism on the internet. But of all the ways we’ve tried so far, Substack is working the best.”

    We have investigated ourselves and found no problems. Any further criticism will be dismissed

  • gerikson@awful.systemsEnglish
    6·
    11 months ago

    Katie Notopoulos writes about the economic incentives for substack to keep Nazis:

    https://www.businessinsider.com/substack-nazi-problem-free-speech-money-analysis-2023-12?r=US&IR=T

    Also links to a post signed by a bunch of prominent substackers who are just fine with the policy as it stands. Contains the usual suspects of Bari Weiss, Edward Snowden, Matt Taibbi and Michael Shellenberger: https://substack.com/home/post/p-139757629

    Good to have on hand if you find any of them linked so they can be avoided