• albinanigans@kbin.social
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    1 year ago

    Yanno what? Good for them! Not only for swiftly defederating at their discretion (which I support, full stop) but also this open dialogue that is happening.

    People forget that defederating can be reversed, but it requires communication and cooperation for that to be an option.

    • tox_solid@kbin.social
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      1 year ago

      This is a good take. I find it strange that beehaw would be cast as the villains in this situation when an open line of communication exists between the admins with the tentative goal of refederating.

  • can@sh.itjust.worksOP
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    1 year ago

    I would like to thank /u/thedude for having an open dialogue with other instances.

    Edit: (how) can I link to a user? @TheDude /u/TheDude

  • Tempiz@sh.itjust.works
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    1 year ago

    Great to hear that there is a dialog open between the admins. Hopefully it is all sorted swiftly. Federating with all of the large instances is important for the continued growth of the platform.

  • can@sh.itjust.worksOP
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    1 year ago

    cross-posted from: https://beehaw.org/post/594843

    hey folks, here’s a quick update on our decision to defederate from sh.itjust.works! (and here’s sh.itjust.works’s side of this update)

    we got in touch with the head admin over there, The Dude, and we had a pretty good chat about our concerns and reason for defederating. while immediate re-federation is just bluntly off the table with the rudimentary state of Lemmy’s moderation tools, we now have a pretty good idea of the roadmap to refederating with them. we think we’ll eventually be able to do this, although we don’t have a timetable on when yet.

    we’re also now collaborating with him on how to move forward–and in the weeks and months to come we’ll be pushing to expedite the process of developing some of the necessary tools. this decision has really helped us make connections that can hopefully realize those tools both on the desktop side and in apps being developed for Lemmy. we’re also hoping to collaborate with other Lemmy administrators who have needs like our own, or just generally want more granular tools at their disposal.

    we did also get in touch with the lemmy.world owner prior to defederating to share the concerns that prompted us to defederate[1]–but we have not received any communication from him since it was levied, so there’s no roadmap at all there as of now. we’re always open to reconsidering and collaborating to end the defederation with him, but for now the earliest i can give you is “when mod tools are in a better state”.

    that’s all for now folks. if any new significant developments take place we’ll announce them as needed.


    1. we’re only bringing this up now because it was just not useful information in the context of our announcement. it almost certainly would have been interpreted as some sort of callousness and/or brought unnecessary sectarianism and grief to him. at the end of the day he has his reasons and desires for running lemmy.world how he does, and we have ours for running Beehaw as we do. because of social and technological circumstances those are just incompatible right now, and that’s fine. ↩︎

    • Xathonn@kbin.social
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      1 year ago

      Since lemmy.world and sh.itjust.works didn’t have any restrictions on making accounts they were getting a lot of trolls coming from those 2 instances so they defederated from them until the moderation tools become more advanced.

      • onceuponaban@kbin.social
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        1 year ago

        Given that kbin (or at least kbin.social) generally doesn’t have restrictions on making accounts either I would assume we’re next, eventually.

        • BaroqueInMind@kbin.social
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          1 year ago

          And if they do, nothing of value is lost.

          The community in Beehaw are all cool people, but their weird rules and heavy filtering puts me off.

          Beehaw admins give me vibes of a power-hungry reddit mods or overbearing parent who thinks they know better than me.

          I’ll stick with other instances that allow adults to speak with adult language. I’m sick of the fucking nanny caretaker censoring bullshit that forums tend to eventually become.

          • onceuponaban@kbin.social
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            1 year ago

            I can understand the value of making your community a more tight-knit one with a proactive stance on moderation, that’s how Tildes operate and they’re doing fine. The thing is I’m not sure I understand why, given this goal, Beehaw is part of the Fediverse in the first place, where there isn’t much preventing someone from an outside group coming in. This sounds like a case where a centralized instance makes more sense. Maybe they’re trying to see if such a community can exist on the Fediverse, in which case fair enough, but this seems like an uphill road.

          • finder@lemmy.world
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            1 year ago

            The community in Beehaw are all cool people, but their weird rules and heavy filtering puts me off.

            Not surprising. From looking around it seem like they want to turn beehaw into a business they can profit off of in the long run.

            https://beehaw.org/post/452132

            in the very, very long term, we aspire to become a co-op or similar, as a part of fulfilling our ethos.

            • pancakes@sh.itjust.works
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              1 year ago

              That’s the beautiful thing about federation though, is that as users we can choose not to subscribe and engage with communities that don’t share our values.

              • finder@lemmy.world
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                1 year ago

                That is ignoring that instance owners can decide for their users what instances they can and cannot engage with. Which is fine, it is their server they can manage it how they like. That is not the user deciding how to interact with other instances and communities.

                I see the whole federation as a bit of a paradox. Users are allowed and encouraged to interact with other instances and communities as they please. However, if the instance a user belongs to decides to defederate from another instance. Users now have to create another account to keep interacting with that instance. Which kind of defeats the purpose of federation. Now users are forced to create an account for each instance they want to continue interacting with.

          • RyanHakurei@kbin.social
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            1 year ago

            It would not surprise me if Beehaw admins are some of the Reddit powermods just hedging their bets in case Reddit dies or they get banned.

        • Otome-chan@kbin.social
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          1 year ago

          This is what all us kbinauts were thinking and a few of us asked beehaw and their response was literally “who are you? we don’t even think about you” lol. so I think we’re probably fine.

          • albinanigans@kbin.social
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            1 year ago

            If it comes to that… It is what it is!

            I don’t need big instances directly piped into my vein to have a good time on the internet.

    • Timboflex@lemmy.world
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      1 year ago

      They only have 4 admins and don’t allow users to create communities. It’s highly curated, but also can’t handle the influx of users from other instances until they have better mod tools, or change their position.

      • darcy@discuss.tchncs.de
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        1 year ago

        The solution was to ask for more volunteer mods, not the nuclear option.

        Its surpassing how much they want to control what other people see.

        • JackFromWisconsin@midwest.social
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          1 year ago

          Which they have been doing. They added a bunch of mods to local communities. But it just wasn’t enough, according to them.

          Its surpassing [sic] how much they want to control what other people see.

          Well that’s what they’ve said from the beginning. They wanted a more curated and friendly instance, rather than having the old reddit culture.

        • Timboflex@lemmy.world
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          1 year ago

          100% agree, and their need for control is a huge red flag. I don’t really want them federated tbh. Already they are trying to use their control over several large communities to influence other instances policies.

    • Bojimbo@kbin.social
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      1 year ago

      From my understanding, with the slew of new users on lemmy.world and sh.itjust.works, moderating comments and posts that were against Beehaw community rules (largely because of bigotry and harassment) became more or less impossible. While there has been an overall explosion in new accounts across the fediverse, almost all of their time was moderating users from those two instances. They were not able to find a compromise using the current mod tools, so went with the nuclear option while they figure out new solutions.

    • Alice@exploding-heads.com
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      1 year ago

      Here’s the truth. They want a safe space. If you question the admins they will ban you. You must be militantly polite or your gone

      • Denali@kbin.social
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        1 year ago

        They explicitly state that they’re making a safe space in their TOS thing, no?

          • Denali@kbin.social
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            1 year ago

            Yes? That’s explicitly the purpose. I get it’s shitty but it’s pretty stupid to go to a place where they outright tell you they’re going to censor you and then get mad that they do it

            • RyanHakurei@kbin.social
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              1 year ago

              Yeah so I don’t think we’re disagreeing here then. I made the claim that they’re very censor-heavy and toxic and you seem to confirm that yourself. My argument was never about specifically going over there.

            • RyanHakurei@kbin.social
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              1 year ago

              Bro look at their description you can pick it up just from that. They straight up say things like “if you say bad things about feminism you’re automatically sexist” like what?

              • geoffervescent@kbin.social
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                1 year ago

                Except… that’s not what they say anywhere. In fact they wrote three nuanced essays that explain in detail their philosophy, and lay out that you CAN be critical of something (i.e. feminism) in a nice way that acknowledges your humanity and the humanity of others, and that if Feminists come in and flame you over it, THOSE are the people who will be getting warnings and bans. They want a mature community that fosters mutual understanding when disagreements arise. So when someone says “feminism bad” like they have a 26 character limit that doesn’t exist, they see it not as disagreement but as disrespect.

                • RyanHakurei@kbin.social
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                  1 year ago

                  Show me where they are accepting of criticism to feminism, links please, because I can source my argument. Nothing in that post encourages criticism of feminism regardless of the type of criticism. It’s funny because they specifically defend modern feminism, which is something many people can find criticism of.

                  and that if Feminists come in and flame you over it, THOSE are the people who will be getting warnings and bans.

                  Yeah, for many many reasons I doubt that. If anything, the admins will allow those feminists to flame you, likely giving them a pass to violate TOS, before banning you simply for posting an article.

  • thatfuckinglinuxguy@kbin.social
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    1 year ago

    I find it a bit ironic how so many people are pointing out how “growing is important to federation” specifically in reference to this… but at the same time, beehaw are one of the few sites that are against growth (as can bee seen by their requiring to get approved in order to join their server… which IMO is no better or worse than tilde’s invite requirement)… and, given the timing, it would seem that they are against hosting reddit refugees in particular.

    Yes, you can claim it is for keeping beehaw’s site stable or curating users or plenty of other more palatable reasons. But at the end of the day, you are still turning users away. I have a lot of respect for kbin not closing its doors to new users, despite the load it is placing on their infrastructure.

    Personally, I wouldn’t mind one bit if kbin/beehaw were defederated from each other (not advocating for it, just saying I wouldn’t care whatsoever if it happened on its own)

    • Salt@kbin.social
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      1 year ago

      You can be for growth and against unchecked growth. The two are not the same.

    • noodlejetski@kbin.social
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      1 year ago

      they’re not against growth, it’s just not their priority and they don’t want to achieve it at any cost.

      • skulblaka@kbin.social
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        1 year ago

        Which, honestly, I respect. If you know you can’t support growth then don’t push for it. Huge props to Ernest for dealing appropriately with the growth of kbin.social but I also approve of Beehaw’s approach - namely: we aren’t ready for that kind of growth right now so we aren’t going to let it happen.

        I expect something similar will have to be put in place here at kbin as well sooner or later. Eventually we will run up against a limit of what Ernest can do being but a single man with but a single pair of hands.

      • thatfuckinglinuxguy@kbin.social
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        1 year ago

        You’re welcome to have your own opinions. But I think actions speak louder than words

        And so far, based on their actions, IMO they are being a bit elitist. They can prioritize whatever they want… But by doing so, it becomes clear that they are not interested in the users leaving reddit, so I will not pity them when those users end up elsewhere.

        Then again, I am not in the “p.c. language” camp - as anyone who bothered to read my screen name can tell immediately - and am probably not in the demographic they’re going for anyway.

        • noodlejetski@kbin.social
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          1 year ago

          You’re welcome to have your own opinions

          wow, much generous. it’s not “my opinion” though, it’s something Beehaw’s owners have stated multiple times over the past however long have I had an account there.

          But I think actions speak louder than words

          you mean, like an action of not prioritizing growth?

          it becomes clear that they are not interested in the users leaving reddit

          they’re interested in forming their own community. they’re not trying to become a replacement for reddit and never have.

          Then again, I am not in the “p.c. language” camp

          https://i.vgy.me/WvmUNs.jpg

          • thatfuckinglinuxguy@kbin.social
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            it’s not “my opinion” though, it’s something Beehaw’s owners have stated multiple times over the past however long have I had an account there.

            Your opinion or theirs. It’s obvious that you agree with it. I’m not trying to persuade you to have a different opinion. I really don’t care.

            I do appreciate you not hiding the fact that you are a member there.

            But my point is that just because they give some rationale that sounds good at first glance, that doesn’t mean that I am incorrect either.

            I think any group that is restricting registration of new users - regardless of their goals or justification - is being elitist because it is restricting to only people some select few in charge deem “worthy” or in some cases, such as tildes random invite drops with extremely short time-windows, are more likely to gather users in particular time zones/regions. Maybe you dislike me using the term “elitist” for this but to my thinking, they are essentially trying to create echo chambers and are considering large segments of the Internet population as undesirables. They can put a marketing spin on that and call it “weeding out racists” or creating a safe space whatever they want but it doesn’t change the underlying facts. I see plenty of sites that avoid these kind of things without resorting to such exclusionary tactics.

            And if this comes across as me trying to pin that solely on beehaw, that’s not my intent. I feel equally so about tildes. Again, you may disagree. That’s fine. I don’t care either way. I am very passionate about free speech, even for those I dislike and disagree with. And it is less that I wish to look down on beehaw/tildes/etc and more that currently, my opinion of them is that they are promoting censored communities, which is something I am opposed to. Perhaps that isn’t actually the case, or maybe they will change things. My opinion isn’t set in stone, and I am happy to revise it if and when new information presents itself. But as things stand now, that is how I see things.

            https://i.vgy.me/WvmUNs.jpg

            Heh good one. Meant it more in the sense that they would probably not allow such a name there but yes, let’s go with me trying to be “edgy” ;-)

            Anyway, as I said in my previous comment, I am not advocating to defederate with them. But if they later get butthurt about something on kbin and decide to defederate us, I doubt that I would even spare it a thought.

            Edit: typos

      • thatfuckinglinuxguy@kbin.social
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        1 year ago

        If you are referring to this

        I wouldn’t mind one bit if kbin/beehaw were defederated from each other

        then, unless you have some insider knowledge, I think you may be mistaken. kbin and beehaw are not defederated … at least not yet.

        federated = joined in an alliance, e.g. linked

        defederated = not federated, e.g. blocked / censored / not linked

        source: https://beehaw.org/instances

        Linked Instances

        • kbin.social
  • Faendol@sh.itjust.works
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    1 year ago

    When I first read about the defederation I had a knee jerk angry response but after thinking about it I really feel like it makes sense for them. They want to have a heavily moderated space and it’s hard to do that when you integrate with the other communities. It seems to me they have a level head and are approaching this carefully. I hope that they end out being in the minority but I can understand having a few relatively solitary groups with a focused goal.

    • krackalot@vlemmy.net
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      1 year ago

      My biggest concern with this, is that it may keep many people from joining us / leaving reddit, as they also will have a knee jerk reaction, but won’t bother to look any further into it.

  • JoeKrogan@lemmy.world
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    1 year ago

    Good news. Im on lemmy.world but I’m sure it will work out. As there is no corporation the users and admins can collectively work on share and own the tools for moderations.

    • VentraSqwal@links.dartboard.social
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      1 year ago

      Exactly. The improved moderation tools will help everyone and there is no reason to keep it to one instance because of the non-profit nature of the fediverse (so far). Good stuff!

    • T156@lemmy.world
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      And they’re open about it, rather than having it happen behind closed doors (or not at all), which is a good sign.

  • danknodes@kbin.social
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    1 year ago

    This alyaza character seems like a real gem. I’m imagining all the curious refugees checking the place out for the first time, seeing all of this censorship irony, and promptly going straight back to reddit.

    and the paragraphs and paragraphs of intentional lowercase. at least, as an admin, they seem very engaged with the community.

  • atypicaloddity@kbin.social
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    1 year ago

    I see that in both the original post and now this update that the focus has been on improving tooling for Lemmy specifically. I’m worried that kbin isn’t having the same focus on moderation tools. Anyone have some insight into kbin’s roadmap?

  • Otome-chan@kbin.social
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    interesting. I wonder what this entails for sh.itjust.works? I know y’all can be a lot… harsher than those beehaw guys. I wonder if beehaw is expecting a culture/tone shift? or just indeed actual moderating?

  • reitoei@kbin.social
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    1 year ago

    “talk to us, let’s set out a road map, we are the reasonable ones”

    When someone said they were very “Delores Umbridge”, they weren’t wrong.

  • ritzylasagna@kbin.social
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    1 year ago

    It’s almost like we need to create some kind of… Constitution that everyone agrees on for these United States… I mean, instances. Ahem.