with exceptions like Socrates who was supposedly a stone mason when not being annoying in public
I think that the story here was that he came from a family of sculptors (see Euthyphro) but that by the time he took up being a gadfly, he was an ascetic who relied on savings and alms. He is usually called a stonemason because we usually think of sculptors, especially Greek sculptors, as working with stone, but this is in large part because the wood sculptures didn’t survive.
On the other hand I might be mistaken. Apparently his father helped to build the Parthenon (which is indeed stone). Now I’m trying to figure out where I got the idea of Socrates working with wood. Maybe I’m inverting the “Jesus was a carpenter” (he was actually a stonemason) thing in my head, but I think I read it in the footnotes of a Euthyphro translation or something.
I do not ever recall anyone ever claiming that he worked with wood, though it has been awhile since I read any dialogues (particularly in Greek, I don’t mias that). I think there is a small portion of one of the Xenophon dialogues that goes into it abit (as Xenophon generally speaking was less interested in just using Socrates as an ideas mouthpiece than Plato).
I agree whatever his previous profession, by the time he was a public philosopher, he pretty much survived by dinners with patrons and his personal savings, but critically, and probably why he was executed, he eschewed teaching the elite’s children for money (which is what Plato would end up doing) preferring to do all of his teaching either outside the city, in the forum, or while drunk at private residences for a pittance.
Edit: Most of the most famous platonic dialogues are him ‘in debate’ (though if he was actually having these discussions is obviously apocryphal) with the leading ‘virtue’ teachers who were the premier teachers of the children of Athenian elites, with Plato basically using these dialogues as a method of advertisement to the elites as why his academic style curriculum was better, basically using Socrates as a mouthpiece to point out how full of shit they were.
Okay, the one thing that I do remember with confidence is that he taught anyone but refused payment* [and therefore refused the “teaching” characterization in favor of merely having some discourse and being joined in investigations], and at least in legend he rarely ever so much as set foot outside the city (there is one dialogue, Phaedrus, where he actually does go to outside the city walls and much ado is made of that fact). I think the elite were pissed at him for teaching their children (in public lecturing, etc.), thus “corrupting the youth”.
Ah yes! That was it. If I remember correctly, there was also much ado about how he would also teach slaves. I was remembering the Phaedrus dialogue (who could forget the classic, ‘Yeah your gay love for that beautiful boy is cool and all, but it will never be as cool as my love for knowledge, also writing is obviously corrupting the youth’) but I was forgetting that it was a big deal he was outside the city.
there was also much ado about how he would also teach slaves.
You’re right, especially since one of the big ones is Meno, in which Socrates argues for the Reminiscence theory of knowledge (i.e. that knowledge is remembered rather than learned) by educating a slave on math by basically asking the slave leading questions allowing him to come to the answer using his own ability for inference.
I disagree with Socrates-via-Plato on most things, but the dialogues are still very interesting and it reminds me of why I got into philosophy to start with.
Though, based on the little bit we hear from Xenophon, my personal belief is that actual Socrates would disagree with most of what Socrates-via-Plato would theorize. He seemed far more interested in a theory of criticism than a theory of construction, but that is probably my personal bias talking.
Yeah, I definitely got into philosophy for the history of ideas more than anything else. It is absolutely incredible how long some of these ideological dialogues have historically been going on, and yet somehow people still treat them as if they are novel.
I think that the story here was that he came from a family of sculptors (see Euthyphro) but that by the time he took up being a gadfly, he was an ascetic who relied on savings and alms. He is usually called a stonemason because we usually think of sculptors, especially Greek sculptors, as working with stone, but this is in large part because the wood sculptures didn’t survive.
On the other hand I might be mistaken. Apparently his father helped to build the Parthenon (which is indeed stone). Now I’m trying to figure out where I got the idea of Socrates working with wood. Maybe I’m inverting the “Jesus was a carpenter” (he was actually a stonemason) thing in my head, but I think I read it in the footnotes of a Euthyphro translation or something.
I do not ever recall anyone ever claiming that he worked with wood, though it has been awhile since I read any dialogues (particularly in Greek, I don’t mias that). I think there is a small portion of one of the Xenophon dialogues that goes into it abit (as Xenophon generally speaking was less interested in just using Socrates as an ideas mouthpiece than Plato).
I agree whatever his previous profession, by the time he was a public philosopher, he pretty much survived by dinners with patrons and his personal savings, but critically, and probably why he was executed, he eschewed teaching the elite’s children for money (which is what Plato would end up doing) preferring to do all of his teaching either outside the city, in the forum, or while drunk at private residences for a pittance.
Edit: Most of the most famous platonic dialogues are him ‘in debate’ (though if he was actually having these discussions is obviously apocryphal) with the leading ‘virtue’ teachers who were the premier teachers of the children of Athenian elites, with Plato basically using these dialogues as a method of advertisement to the elites as why his academic style curriculum was better, basically using Socrates as a mouthpiece to point out how full of shit they were.
Okay, the one thing that I do remember with confidence is that he taught anyone but refused payment* [and therefore refused the “teaching” characterization in favor of merely having some discourse and being joined in investigations], and at least in legend he rarely ever so much as set foot outside the city (there is one dialogue, Phaedrus, where he actually does go to outside the city walls and much ado is made of that fact). I think the elite were pissed at him for teaching their children (in public lecturing, etc.), thus “corrupting the youth”.
*He probably did accept food, as you suggest
Ah yes! That was it. If I remember correctly, there was also much ado about how he would also teach slaves. I was remembering the Phaedrus dialogue (who could forget the classic, ‘Yeah your gay love for that beautiful boy is cool and all, but it will never be as cool as my love for knowledge, also writing is obviously corrupting the youth’) but I was forgetting that it was a big deal he was outside the city.
You’re right, especially since one of the big ones is Meno, in which Socrates argues for the Reminiscence theory of knowledge (i.e. that knowledge is remembered rather than learned) by educating a slave on math by basically asking the slave leading questions allowing him to come to the answer using his own ability for inference.
I disagree with Socrates-via-Plato on most things, but the dialogues are still very interesting and it reminds me of why I got into philosophy to start with.
Yeah, that was it!
Though, based on the little bit we hear from Xenophon, my personal belief is that actual Socrates would disagree with most of what Socrates-via-Plato would theorize. He seemed far more interested in a theory of criticism than a theory of construction, but that is probably my personal bias talking.
Yeah, I definitely got into philosophy for the history of ideas more than anything else. It is absolutely incredible how long some of these ideological dialogues have historically been going on, and yet somehow people still treat them as if they are novel.
Socrates made his cheddar sculpting stone dicks. no joke he carved the hermae that marked intersections and milestones.