It’s such a complicated situation that I’d be hesistant to endorse anything or anyone in this war. Nothing excuses the horrible terrorist attacks, but they’re sort of the logical consequence of people living inside the living hell that Israel turned the Gaza strip into. Also letting everyone there, including innocent people, starve by blockading the area as well as calling them “human animals” is not exactly something I can get behind.
Yep. No decent person supports Hamas’ actions. But no one should be surprised this happened, either. Desperate people do desperate things and support groups that can effect change, even if their methods are awful. Fear for your family’s lives is an incredible motivator.
I place most of blame for this on Netanyahu’s and greater Israeli government’s policies of genocide that has been going on for decades.
greater Israeli government’s policies of genocide that has been going on for decades.
If Israel had started to “genocide” the Palestinians 20 years ago, then the conflict would have been over 19 years and 11 months ago due to a lack of Palestinians. Yes, no side is innocent here, but the situation would be a lot worse if there were a different balance of power.
I understand not wanting to see the word genocide used lightly but your argument seems to boil down to
“it’s not genocide because they’re not done yet”.
Because they didn’t start yet. Israel could wipe out the Palestinians within weeks if they wanted to. But they haven’t done that. Hence it’s proven that there’s no genocide going on.
It’s a good old case of “if I wanted you dead you’d be dead already”.
I did. Maybe you should read it as well.
The definition crucial portion here is that you need an intend to exterminate out a people and take actions in that direction, typically murder. That’s why you could actually argue that the Hamas is committing genocide. After all wiping out the Israelis is their goal.
But it’s moronic to accuse someone of having the intend to do something after they had more than half a century opportunity to do so and didn’t.
That’s fortunately not how it works. Yes, bad situations make bad decisions more likely, but they don’t make them mandatory.
Just like the Second World War wasn’t the “logical conclusion” to the treaty of Versailles, beheading babies isn’t the logical conclusion to closed borders.
You shouldn’t forget that the situation of the Palestinians is magnitudes better in the Wesbank. Because they’re - more or less- peaceful there.
It actualy makes more (as in still almost none) sense to blame the situation with the settlments on Hamas. If they never started firing rockets Israel would have been sanctioned out of stealing land long ago.
the logical consequence of people living inside the living hell that Israel turned the Gaza strip into
Which could be considered a logical consequence of Hamas using every last bit of breathing room they get to launch fresh attacks on Israeli civilians. As this last round of terror well attests. As you say, taking sides is impossible when everyone regularly steps over the line, and if we’re to hope to be decent people ourselves, we should unequivocally condemn violence, oppression, murder & terror regardless of perpetrator.
When people live in squalor and desperation for decades with no way to escape, most of them won’t become the most mentally well people and they will end up very receptive to radical ideology. So while the acts may not be “logical” in themselves, it is logical that these sort of things will happen eventually when you keep people in those conditions.
There is a certain logic to extreme acts, when someone has no other ways left to make themselves heard.
When they get marginalized and oppressed at every turn, and nobody in the world seems to care beyond lip service. When an oppressive regime takes away their rights, their food and water, their schools and jobs, their possessions, their homes, even their means of crying out for help by normal means, people will reach a point where they have nothing left to lose.
And their helplessness and hatred are all that is left, they will not care about lives. Their own, any bystander, all that is left is to hurt the people that hurt them, in an effort to change the situation for their other people.
If you understand “logical” as some sort of justification then I would agree with you but if just see it as an expected outcome of the status quo?
That Hamas would (try to) commit some act of violence was hardly unexpected, was it?
Yes, you are right, but creating a humanitarian crisis purposefully, flattening out whole residential neighbourhoods and displacing hundreds of thousands of innocent people is also not logical, especially coming from a nation that should know a thing or two about oppression.
Just go put some numbers into perspective. The Hamas army is around 30K, probably even less now.
The Gaza population is 2.3Mln.
There are a couple of hundreds of thousands who were already internally displaced, taking refuge at schools, hospitals, etc.
80% of the population of the Gaza strip was relying on humanitarian aid which they just lost. People would starve to death, babies would die, because their mothers won’t be able to get baby formulas. I can’t even fathom the scale of this tragedy. And don’t forget that we are now talking about people with severely limited rights, living in one of the most densely populated areas in the World.
And just wondering if you are put into this and watch how your baby slowly dies, or watch how your closed ones are being killed what are the chances that you would get radicalized as a result?
Already the number of hate crimes based on racial and religious grounds is on the rise this year. And even after this escalation finishes the consequences would be long lasting and those hate crimes would become even more frequent.
And just wondering if you are put into this and watch how your baby slowly dies, or watch how your closed ones are being killed what are the chances that you would get radicalized as a result?
Probably not as high as you think. We call it “terror came home” here in Germany when talking about the areal bombings.
It’s such a complicated situation that I’d be hesistant to endorse anything or anyone in this war. Nothing excuses the horrible terrorist attacks, but they’re sort of the logical consequence of people living inside the living hell that Israel turned the Gaza strip into. Also letting everyone there, including innocent people, starve by blockading the area as well as calling them “human animals” is not exactly something I can get behind.
Yeah I agree with this. Both sides have committed atrocities. The innocent people caught in the middle suffer.
Same. I’m not really happy with the quickness to fly the Israeli flag.
Yep. No decent person supports Hamas’ actions. But no one should be surprised this happened, either. Desperate people do desperate things and support groups that can effect change, even if their methods are awful. Fear for your family’s lives is an incredible motivator.
I place most of blame for this on Netanyahu’s and greater Israeli government’s policies of genocide that has been going on for decades.
If Israel had started to “genocide” the Palestinians 20 years ago, then the conflict would have been over 19 years and 11 months ago due to a lack of Palestinians. Yes, no side is innocent here, but the situation would be a lot worse if there were a different balance of power.
I understand not wanting to see the word genocide used lightly but your argument seems to boil down to
“it’s not genocide because they’re not done yet”.
Surely that wasn’t what you meant?
Because they didn’t start yet. Israel could wipe out the Palestinians within weeks if they wanted to. But they haven’t done that. Hence it’s proven that there’s no genocide going on. It’s a good old case of “if I wanted you dead you’d be dead already”.
So you do mean that a genocide has been happening when a people is wiped out? That’s not the definition, please look it up.
I did. Maybe you should read it as well. The definition crucial portion here is that you need an intend to exterminate out a people and take actions in that direction, typically murder. That’s why you could actually argue that the Hamas is committing genocide. After all wiping out the Israelis is their goal.
But it’s moronic to accuse someone of having the intend to do something after they had more than half a century opportunity to do so and didn’t.
Fully agree. It’s just horrible all around.
That’s fortunately not how it works. Yes, bad situations make bad decisions more likely, but they don’t make them mandatory. Just like the Second World War wasn’t the “logical conclusion” to the treaty of Versailles, beheading babies isn’t the logical conclusion to closed borders.
You shouldn’t forget that the situation of the Palestinians is magnitudes better in the Wesbank. Because they’re - more or less- peaceful there.
It actualy makes more (as in still almost none) sense to blame the situation with the settlments on Hamas. If they never started firing rockets Israel would have been sanctioned out of stealing land long ago.
Which could be considered a logical consequence of Hamas using every last bit of breathing room they get to launch fresh attacks on Israeli civilians. As this last round of terror well attests. As you say, taking sides is impossible when everyone regularly steps over the line, and if we’re to hope to be decent people ourselves, we should unequivocally condemn violence, oppression, murder & terror regardless of perpetrator.
Finally someone who feels like me, i dont feel comfortable taking sides
deleted by creator
When people live in squalor and desperation for decades with no way to escape, most of them won’t become the most mentally well people and they will end up very receptive to radical ideology. So while the acts may not be “logical” in themselves, it is logical that these sort of things will happen eventually when you keep people in those conditions.
There is a certain logic to extreme acts, when someone has no other ways left to make themselves heard.
When they get marginalized and oppressed at every turn, and nobody in the world seems to care beyond lip service. When an oppressive regime takes away their rights, their food and water, their schools and jobs, their possessions, their homes, even their means of crying out for help by normal means, people will reach a point where they have nothing left to lose.
And their helplessness and hatred are all that is left, they will not care about lives. Their own, any bystander, all that is left is to hurt the people that hurt them, in an effort to change the situation for their other people.
The Human Cost Of The Israeli-Palestinian Conflict
If you understand “logical” as some sort of justification then I would agree with you but if just see it as an expected outcome of the status quo?
That Hamas would (try to) commit some act of violence was hardly unexpected, was it?
Yes, you are right, but creating a humanitarian crisis purposefully, flattening out whole residential neighbourhoods and displacing hundreds of thousands of innocent people is also not logical, especially coming from a nation that should know a thing or two about oppression.
Just go put some numbers into perspective. The Hamas army is around 30K, probably even less now.
The Gaza population is 2.3Mln.
There are a couple of hundreds of thousands who were already internally displaced, taking refuge at schools, hospitals, etc.
80% of the population of the Gaza strip was relying on humanitarian aid which they just lost. People would starve to death, babies would die, because their mothers won’t be able to get baby formulas. I can’t even fathom the scale of this tragedy. And don’t forget that we are now talking about people with severely limited rights, living in one of the most densely populated areas in the World.
And just wondering if you are put into this and watch how your baby slowly dies, or watch how your closed ones are being killed what are the chances that you would get radicalized as a result?
Already the number of hate crimes based on racial and religious grounds is on the rise this year. And even after this escalation finishes the consequences would be long lasting and those hate crimes would become even more frequent.
Probably not as high as you think. We call it “terror came home” here in Germany when talking about the areal bombings.