An era of the internet is ending, and we’re watching it happen practically in real time. Twitter has been on a steep and seemingly inexorable decline for, well, years, but especially since Elon Musk bought the company last fall and made a mess of the place. Reddit has spent the last couple of months self-immolating in similar ways, alienating its developers and users and hoping it can survive by sticking its head in the sand until the battle’s over. (I thought for a while that Reddit would eventually be the last good place left, but… nope.) TikTok remains ascendent — and looks ever more likely to be banned in some meaningful way. Instagram has turned into an entertainment platform; nobody’s on Facebook anymore…
Forums, the fediverse, your own website, and perhaps most controversially of all, outside.
Forums as a response to leaving Reddit feels odd to me despite subreddits basically being forums. I guess without a way to aggregate separate forums into one app it loses the appeal that Reddit had for me.
Here’s hoping lemmy takes off.
Yeah, that’s the killer. Reddit was great because I could join a hundred communities and see all of them in one place. Sounds like we need a common forum aggregator of some sort.
Or Lemmy. Liking it so far.
Same. Only thing I’m missing so far is some of my favorite communities like r/onepunchman
I used to rely on it for notification of English translations of new chapters
Same, as well as several other anime communities. There is a OPM community here but so far it’s just a bot reposting Reddit posts with no other engagement.
More people need to bring up migrating to lemmy on those subreddits.
Are you unwilling to just look at that sub on a browser every now and then?
A lot of people here deleted their Reddit accounts when they left.
And the upvoting allowed good stuff from any topic to percolate up. I don’t know too much but the barriers between instances may mean some good content from lesser sources may not be seen or the supporters remain fragmented.
But the latter was also true of Reddit. Good information from smaller subreddits still remained unseen, because of upvoting.
Binary voting isn’t a perfect system, but so far it’s proven to work well enough.
If a better mechanism proves itself in the future I imagine Lemmy will adapt to it over time.
It has been a lot of indoors time here in Ontario thanks to wildfire smog!
Well could y’all keep it in ontario because we’ve been getting your smog down in Minnesota now too.
Joking of course. Stay safe up there.
Should’ve installed giant fans along the border!
Build the wall (of fans)!
And down in Connecticut, too. I want to go hiking but the air’s not been conducive to it.
Outside? You jest 😏
Outside was the first place to be enshittified. I crave third-place, but it hasn’t really existed for decades.
I just finished the Behind the Bastards podcast on Vagrancy. the destruction of the third place and destroying the ability to be anywhere for free without being hassled by the law has changed a part of America that was great. The freedom to exist is becoming elusive. The freedom to find common space with like minded people, that’s becoming hard to find too. I hope this place helps.
Even in third places like public parks or libraries, in America it’s mostly taboo to talk to strangers so it makes meeting people really difficult. Behind the Bastards is fantastic
I’ll start using outside once there is a way to block the sun.
…What do you mean sunblock already exists?
The outside? But it burns… 😫
scoffs inside
Well, It’s the verge.
Is there an outside uh what do you call it here? Sublemmy? Lemmlette? Lemming?
Outside?
How dare you!
Here’s my hope as a 40-something who came of age when the internet was just taking off.
I REALLY HOPE this is the push we need to move away from corporate-owned social media. I have high hopes for federated platforms and forums that are much more like what the internet was when it started (but better because now we have mobile devices).
I realize a lot of people see social media as being some evil thing, but we also fail to realize how much good it has done. Marginalized communities have come together online and formed real movements. People living with health conditions have been connected to one another for support and also life-changing resources and care. People who were isolated because of disability found communities.
I would like to see old-fashioned blogs and RSS make a comeback. I’d like to see forums and federated sites like Lemmy take off. I’d like to see social media sites that have been given way too much weight in society collapse. I don’t think government or reputable media outlets should ever be using a corporate for-profit entity as a means for distributing information.
My worry now, as a bunch of us leave Reddit (the “non-social media” social media site that gave us all some internet community without the horribleness of FB/IG, etc), is that now that these companies have cornered their “gateways to the internet,” there is no wrenching them back. Whether we like it or not, the bulk of people are…well, kinda stupid. They like reality TV and don’t fast forward through commercials and they watch big bang theory and never question if companies’ existences are a net positive. They just take them as a given.
Americans in particular seem to be pretty guilty of this, because our lifestyle lends itself to being spoon fed. It’s easier, makes life simpler…it’s just “the way things are done.” So while I’m hoping this is the beginning of us taking the internet back…I just find it hard to grasp onto any hope for big, positive change. I just feel like we’ve been beaten into submission and as the planet burns to a crisp, capitalism is just gripping the reigns tighter than ever because they know this should be about the time that people start to buck. But…we just don’t. I think even they’re surprised.
It’s hard for social media to go away for good.
But reddit will be like Facebook. Some people go there, but to the vast amount of people it’s a joke.
Hell, Fark is still going
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The best you can do for now is to inform people. Bring it up into conversation with your friends and family. Explain it in a way thats easy to understand and show the positives of Lemmy and other fediverse platforms. Also contribute as much as you can to the fediverse because it is nothing without active communities.
I REALLY HOPE this is the push we need to move away from corporate-owned social media.
We have actually regressed significantly on that and we could easily go back to before it existed. Before Reddit there was (and still is) a decentralized discussion network called Usenet. It was extremely well designed and has none of the design flaws that Fedverse has. All newsgroups were automatically merged across all instances. Your UI showed you only new comments and submissions, in the newsgroups that you subscribed to. You could mark a comment tree as killed, and then you wouldn’t see any new comments in that particular comment tree even while still subscribed to the newsgroup. You generally had your choice of moderated or unmoderated group for each topic, with tens of thousands of topics.
The only reason people don’t use it anymore is because all the free servers disappeared. But now I see all these new free Fedverse servers, which is great, but how come no new free Usenet servers? They could be ad supported. I started using the internet in 1982 and Fedverse feels like a reinvention of the decentralization wheel, which a bunch of design flaws the original has already solved long ago. If there were free servers again, and perhaps a new mobile client, Usenet use would skyrocket as people personally experience how easy and seamless it is.
I’ve never tried Usenet, but I’ve heard little bits about it here and there. What’s a good way to give it a try?
There are commercial Usenet servers you can access for $5-10 bucks/month. You can find them by google search.
For a Usenet client you can look here.
you can view pretty much the complete history at groups.google.com. if there any usenet group still active they would show up there as well but it’s a wasteland as far as i can tell. pity, i spent billions of hours on it back in the day.
here’s a group i was active on back in the day, if you can filter it by just stuff from the 1990’s you might have an idea of what it was like to use it. (of course, it was mostly terminal/console based text readers back then, web browsers were new and scary.) https://groups.google.com/g/rec.music.synth
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Usenet_newsreaders
Usenet has more clients than anyone else.
Lemmy is a good start…
I’m not so sure this is a decline of social as much as decline in the control of large corporate interests. Lemmy is getting going well from what I can see. There will be issues but Reddit did as it grew and Twitter made the fail whale meme for their issues. The internet was pretty awesome in the 90s when none of these large companies even existed.
I mean I am excited for the potential the fediverse has, but I do wonder how long until it becomes enshitified too. Every great new invention that serves the needs of the people always goes downhill at some point. Remember that television networks used to be an amazing platform for all our needs.
The nice thing is that if things do become shit on one instance, the rest just disconnect. The lack of total control over the system by one entity ensures that there is no complete capture to enable the enshitification from taking root and destroying what is good about it.
I am hopeful, but I am cautiously sceptical. I remember hearing about cryptocurrency taking off in 2011 and all about how it was decentralized and was immune to corruption etc and then a decade later seeing SBF types in the news.
The difference here is that there is no supposed or even desired value from the people participating here. We’re not all trying to get rich off of this, nor are we trying to replace all forms of communication here like many crypto purists wish would happen with Bitcoin replacing the dollar. Nothing rides on this being a success, perpetual growth isn’t necessary, and defederation doesn’t mean that our communities wouldn’t still have worth to us.
Crypto does have all those benefits, but without wide enough adoption, there’s genuinely nothing valuable about it. Just like real money. It is immune to a certain kind of corruption (manipulating the money supply) but very weak to another kind (making your own worthless currency to scam people with).
Even if we got society to go full crypto acceptance, governments would do all they can to control it. Manipulating the money supply is how you get every politician’s favorite thing ever; an economy fueled through the debt of future generations.
The fediverse has the same conceptual benefits and the same problem of needing large groups of people to grow, but there is a big difference: having spaces for online communication not controlled by single actors is valuable in and of itself. Whether enough people find it valuable enough to participate is up to them, but the concept, at least, is incredibly appealing especially at this current moment.
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You don’t seem to really understand the word enshitification. It’s not just “things getting shittier” - it refers specifically to the capitalist pressures that are exerted on private platforms and services that need to chase investor capital to scale and survive. The reason enshitification happens is because they are operating under a model that needs to first entice users with a high value product that is subsidized by venture capital, but that when that dries up the pressures come first to appease the investors at the expense of the users and then the owners at the expense of the investors. Fediverse for all its croaks and groans in these early stages is specifically designed to be decentralized and scalable by small clusters of users. It’s user owned and managed. When one cluster shows signs of degrading, you can move to another. I’m bullish on fediverse and decentralized platforms like this on being that solution and it’s not clear yet that they suffer the same inevitable enshitification that legacy platforms do.
No I understand the word. What I’m saying is that as the fediverse grows, and large communities develop, there will be large corps will want a piece of the action. They operate with money, they down build or create, they buy. What would you do, you living you life as you are now, but decide to take up running an instance. Assume that instance grows very large and starts getting worldwide recognition, and some corporate affiliated executive invites you to meet and they give you a very real offer of $84,000,000,000 to give the instance to them. They promise to add the features you’ve wanted to implement but was struggling to, offer a team of people to help with your bot and spam issues. Would you turn that down? Idk about you, but I could definitely use 84 million dollars. I hate corps with a passion, I believe they ruin everything they touch, but I could do the things I want with that kind of money.
And so what do the community’s of thousands upon thousands members do when their admin sells out? Do they move? Can the entire community just up and move to another instance and keep the same engagement? Would they even want to? The corpo’s just implemented the features they’ve been asking for for years, they can’t be that bad right? Besides we like it here. I’m sure it’ll be fine, right? Besides, Amazon already ownes one of the other largeest instance, and we’re def not moving to the one meta runs, what’s one more?
And of course once the large corps have thrown all their money at the newest popular thing, they repeat the process. All of them Switch from growth focus to monetization focus and everything turns to shit.
There are other options, there are smaller instances that people could move to, and that probably will happen, but the effect will be similar. People who were all gathered in once place, enjoying one thing, get splintered into lots of other smaller groups, with a newer differenter thing. And it starts over again.
I am hopeful that a sizable chunk of people are smart enough to see the writing on the wall with corporate owned media and will inevitably follow to the non-corporate-controlled places (like the fediverse model). The danger will be the model falling over as the temptation to centralise, control, and exploit becomes higher. The lemmy model only works if there isn’t a dominate server with a large proportion of content right? What happens if lemmy.world gets big then just decides to de-federate? It’s just reddit all over again.
This is also a major concern of mine. We ideally don’t want any single instance to become dominant enough that they can afford to de-federate without much repercussion. Excessive consolidation also leads to higher cost pressures, which in turn incentivize revenue generation to fund the operations and potentially compensation for effort. Keeping everything distributed would help avoid many pitfalls.
That’s why each instance should be donation funded
If a server defederates, users can stay or go. Maybe the users of that server decide that there’s enough content locally sand they prefer to use what is a private forum. And if they don’t, they migrate.
I think rather than a possible disaster, this is an example of the principle that we should build the web not with the intention that systems never break, but that they break better. Like letting small, healthy brush fires maintain forests instead of trying to prevent them until they explode catastrophically.
I actually really like this take. Maybe this is just social media growing up, becoming more focused and self aware. The fediverse is currently super rough around the edges, but it really knows what it is. That’s more than can be said for pretty much any of the big social networks.
I’m so down for an open, transparent Internet with focused communities and small websites.
Each social media giant is slowly becoming a walled garden, only allowing you to play inside, but not permitting anything out. We saw it with Facebook, now Twitter. Next up, Reddit is now disallowing any outside access without a tollgate.
Lemmy I see more like the German Schrebergarten. These are plots of land, usually not wanted by the major players, or on the outskirts of town. You get a plot portion out of this and build your garden/community out of this. There are no walls in Lemmy, but fences with gates, and you decide which other gardeners have access. There are other plots of land in other parts of the city, and you also decide which of those gardens you’ll trade seeds and plants with.
I hope we’ll never put up walls.
All this consolidation of all the engagement to three huge platforms was never a good thing anyway
Discord is probably the tool best-suited to capture users’ social needs right now. It’s definitely the best Reddit alternative we have.
Sure, Discord chats are great, particularly for smaller communities/IRL friends. But as an alternative to subreddits or classic forums they’re absolute rubbish. Lemmy seems to be the only real game in that town for now.
And discord is slowly moving towards a similar level of corporate takeover and shifting it to “keep up” with every competitor app they can imagine. So I don’t even know how long that one will last.
That was a good read, thanks for sharing.
I’m on the fence on this one since I’ve mixed views on the social media era of the net. It was great, until we switched from usernames to users (Facebook charging ahead, Google following soon after).
Controversial, but I don’t mind the odd clearly marked advert targeted towards the person my browser says I am (i.e. a gamer looking for games, not someone who should be getting life insurance!) - if it isn’t invasive and is showing me something I want I’ll probably click it and take a look.
What we’ve seen evolving alongside social media is malvertising by another name - adverts that are using your desire to skip them to trick you into triggering a click. Cable-levels of advertising when listening to music - my radio offers less ads and better music sometimes. Last time I clicked an ad at work by mistake (playing a video for the class), it set of the antivirus.
The prevelance of linking online presence to your “real life”, and tying in adverts to that? That’s what killed it for me, and likely killed it for everyone else too. Bring back the days of MySpace and Geocities, and those plain banner ads that harmed no-one!
idk maybe it’s just frivolous thinking, but imo since social media is corrupted by corporate profiteering brought about by venture capitalists, a social media platform that can be scaled and run very cheaply and in a decentralised fashion (think JUST text posts, all media has to be somehow hosted externally) could genuinely succeed, and be BOTH a mainstream place, while also being friendly to its users, and creating a friendly and cozy environment 🤷♀️
Agree.
The only thing that I was worried about with the alternatives was the websites being spammed with alt right content. Reddit users are not as unhinged as YouTube comments, Facebook, twitter etc. Im glad there’s no alt right content on lemmy. So I’m pretty happy here.
Also I don’t want to have a free speech debate. If you want to post edgy shit go to twitter. For me personally its not something I like. Im not really interested in having a debate. Just personal preference
There is absolutely alt-right content on lemmy. That said, it is mostly drowned out. I saw several alt-right communities when I joined lemmy 3 weeks ago with only 1 member. These people were trying to build echo chambers by themselves. Other lemmy users would come in and start posting articles from regular media which pretty much shut down. I think it’s great that users here don’t want to allow it to be a safe haven for that kind of stuff, unlike the numerous other “free speech” websites that actively encourage it.
Oh it’s here, but luckily it’s pushed to one side and easily blocked.
It needs to stay that way
Days late, but my first ever Fediverse experience was a Linux dude’s pro-trans post that was cool, but then the comments were spammed with “N-word bot”( not written that way) shouting exactly what the name suggested, with tons of people cheering it on. It was the main reason I avoided it over here for a bit.
So theres absolutely shitty people here too, as in any community, but therer does seem to be less so far.
So glad to see the era of profit driven social media die.
You can say that again, Adm. Shat.
There’s an opportunity in this mess to re imagine the digital commons for the better. What does an online social space look like when it privileges the needs of the community over the needs of capital?
I’ve been wondering the same thing and I’m looking forward to having my questions answered.
Corporations shouldn’t get sole control of the benefits of the records of public discourse, those should be freely available to everyone.
I hate it how TikTok is still not banned in most Western countries since it’s a shameless CCP-owned propaganda tool and a scary one at that.
There’s still Tumblr! 🥹
I logged into my tumblr for the first time in 7 years yesterday and it was a huge blast from the past. I couldn’t believe it had been that long 😅
