• ganymede@lemmy.ml
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    1 year ago

    Either we are failing to communicate (because i too have a strong sense you just “want to be right” regardless of the facts), or you’re actually engaging in bad faith discussion.

    Since you mentioned you have the same feeling I’ll try to lay it out a bit more.

    Its unfortunate you’ve had people ego flex on you over supposed morality. But that doesn’t mean everyone who mentions linux is like that.

    Example, I’ve seen people who go up to smokers and evangalise about how smoking is “bad”, and how they’re “hurting society BY hurting themselves with smoking”. Well arguments about second hand smoke aside, I don’t really think that approach is especially helpful. It’s a moral position based on this abstract idea - even if statistically smokers increase our insurance or some shit like that, i doubt many people have the personal experience to say it actually effects them, so it defs comes off as a supposed moral high ground thing, right?

    Because some people are going around making that kind of fuss, does mean that EVERYONE who chooses not to smoke is acting out some moral high ground fantasy? Are ALL those who quit smoking “for their health” just morality faking fuckwits? Or are some of them legit worried about their lung health?

    For another example, your claim of conflation very much appears to be centred around your misunderstanding of the facts: You’ve had some people flex on your ego, and thats unfortunate. But I don’t think its useful to allow that experience to taint everything else you hear on the topic, and therefore presume you know what someone is saying just because someone else took the same side on the same topic.

    The entire premise of traditional digital computing is centred on some key concepts, one of which is defined behaviour. Very clear and strict logical boundaries need to be established for what is defined behaviour. In simple, an operation (eg. adding two numbers), must be deterministic, that is the same two numbers when added must always produce the same resulting number.

    Central to another aspect of this is trust. If you cannot trust the outcome of defined behaviour, then the precepts of computing fall apart for a variety of important applications, the behaviour is no longer strictly defined.

    I’d hard to overstate how important this is, how much it empowers you as a member of the public, who do not have the resources to hire a team of number crunchers (as companies used to have to do in the old days).

    Microsoft have repeatedly shown, they cannot be trusted. They will manipulate and deceive, by design in your computer, with actual code they insert into windows and then knowingly ship.

    For these people, this problem matters ALOT, and this isn’t some abstract thing, its not some idealist philosophy to smugly throw around at parties, its a cold electronic fact - something they have to deal with, overcome, often at their own expense. The problem being, that when they ask their computer to perform an operation, their computer might intentionally lie to them about the operation itself, the outcome of the operation, or the integrity of the information going in or out of that operation.

    The trust problem between microsoft and the code they insert into windows (running at the highest privilege level on YOUR computer hardware), is absolutely intertwined in the real world, in practice, in a variety of ways. Yes, all threat models involving linux deal with trust problems as well. But when you have a known compromised product from a known bad actor it is simply incorrect to suggest the product and the creator can only be considered in isolation from eachother.

    And as you can appreciate you don’t even need to do anything wrong, for these kind of user-hostile features to be used against you, even in ways not intended by those who put them there - which is a whole other issue.

    I could go on & on as this is really just touching the surface, but I hope you can begin to appreciate it’s not even remotely close to a conflation, this is not some guilt by association abstract nonsense, this is deeply and painfully practical. i really hope you can at least get a glimpse of it for yourself now.

    • stonedemoman@lemmy.world
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      1 year ago

      For another example, your claim of conflation very much appears to be centred around your misunderstanding of the facts

      Not even close. This is plain to see, as nowhere in this entire essay, nor in any of your other comments for that matter, do you even address my point that lumping in Windows users with the immoral actions of a company results in a harmful dissonance that breeds hostility towards people that realistically don’t have another choice. Time and time again you’ve just ignored this and spouted some platitudes about how Microsoft being bad and Windows being their product somehow means that there’s no need to delineate the two because of their relationship. You can support one without supporting the other. There’s no need to tap dance around it.

      At least you’ve confirmed my suspicions that you hold these beliefs because of some misguided sense of superiority. I.E. I’m wrong because I can’t comprehend the problem. This is our miscommunication.

      or you’re actually engaging in bad faith discussion

      How can you even begin to think this when I’ve done nothing but advocate for both operating systems and attempted to elucidate the root of hostilities? How is my goal here not completely obvious?

      • ganymede@lemmy.ml
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        1 year ago

        i said i don’t defend it in the very first message i said to you. why isn’t that enough?

        you claim i won’t address it when i denounced it in the very first reply i sent to you?!? when i already denounced it, what is there left to say?

        Thanks for wasting my time. It seems you have no interest in the facts or learning anything new. You just want to be right, even when discussing a topic you openly admit you know little to nothing about. You freely admit you can’t get linux to work properly, yet suppose to lecture everyone what they are and are not free to discuss about this very same topic you admit you can’t get a handle on. All because your ego got a little bruised

        enjoy.

          • ganymede@lemmy.ml
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            1 year ago

            all linux users are smug arseholes because once upon a time some of them hurt my feelings. and even though another linux user repeatedly denounced that and said its unfortunate, i pretended they didn’t because they wouldn’t endlessly cry with me about my hurt feelings and instead talked about actual real world facts, what a horrible group of people

            • stonedemoman@lemmy.world
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              1 year ago

              I’m a Linux user. Duh-doy. My very first comment said as much. I self-host a media server on a Debian distro. That’s one of the funniest parts of all this, people keep assuming that because it’s a struggle for me that I was never successful at it or that I’m ignorant on the subject. I succeeded despite my inadequacies, thank you very much.

              Also yes, that’s how it’s gonna be if you’re just going to continue perpetuating some of the collateral damage and call my attempt to change that …how did you put it? Oh right

              wasting my time

              • ganymede@lemmy.ml
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                1 year ago

                nowhere in this entire essay, nor in any of your other comments for that matter, do you even address my point that lumping in Windows users with the immoral actions of a company results in a harmful dissonance

                anyone can see the scrollback for themselves, it’s plainly visible i denounced it multiple times. the evidence is right here for anyone to see:

                But then you learn they got rich by cutting corners and screwing over your friends. And are actively investing in making the public pool shit so they can grandstand their pool. Noone is blaming you for going up to the rich guys pool to have a nice easy time. Or at least, I’m not defending the kind of linux zealots who might blame you for choosing that

                Source

                As I mentioned, I’m not here to criticise you for making the choice you have, or defend those who do criticise you for it.

                Source

                As stated we are not listing reasons for condemning you for your choice

                Source

                As stated many times, you are welcome to your choice, and your choice is understandable.

                Source

                dude its just sad at this point. why are you bothering to pretend its not addressed when its addressed repeatedly and was even requoted like 2 posts before you made your ridiculous, verifiably false statement.

                what is the purpose of this game? who do you think you’re kidding? anyone can see you’re being dishonest. and don’t even have the grace to admit it, you’re wrong. completely wasting an opportunity for us both to learn and for us to be friends even.

                whats even stranger is the original discussion was about linux community shitting on windows NOT windows users:

                The Linux community shitting on Windows is worse

                Source

                you’ve fixated on this windows user issue when, as quoted, it was never even about that, was already denounced by me immediately as quoted & sourced repeatedly above.

                i can see why you think linux users are smug arseholes, you pull this shit and cry when you don’t get away with it. its just sad dude. noone at microsoft is paying for your time to get invested like this. you think you give a fuck about you???

                but you know who might actually give a fuck about you? us, here, in this community. but you need to start by being honest with yourself about this, otherwise you are the one making it a waste of time.

                • stonedemoman@lemmy.world
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                  1 year ago

                  it’s hardly a conflation, this hostile modus operandi is baked into the windows product itself with malicious and intrusive features. i’m not sure if this is news to anyone, but those user-hostile features were added to windows by microsoft. and the best defense offered thus far for that is basically “most or all tech giants do it too” - yes, thankyou that’s exactly our point. the fact that shipping this kind of abusive software has been normalised is part of the problem too.

                  For another example, your claim of conflation very much appears to be centred around your misunderstanding of the facts

                  I’m entirely unconvinced by your claim that any participation in “capitalistic evil” immediately invalidates all subsequent discernment of shades of evil or the complex interactions thereof.

                  even when discussing a topic you openly admit you know little to nothing about.

                  All because your ego got a little bruised

                  Funny, for somebody that claims to not conflate Windows with Microsoft you seem to spend a lot of time telling Windows users that they’re ignorant or wrong for association with Microsoft. Not to mention you edited out most of the times you lumped them together.

                  • ganymede@lemmy.ml
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                    1 year ago

                    if you wanna continue to embarrass yourself go ahead. i won’t be entertaining this sad display any longer.

                    anyone is free to search the thread and read what i wrote in the full context it was stated.

                    and to see your blatant dishonesty.

                    good luck mate, i hope you find some kind of peace to whatever is keeping you so fixated about windows users that you need to fabricate an enemy in me over that aspect, despite me clearly and repeatedly denouncing it from day 1 of this discussion. all the best.

              • ganymede@lemmy.ml
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                1 year ago

                and for the record i don’t think its about ‘inadequacies’. its not a magic skill or secret knowledge. its just about investing the time to learn. put the time in and it will come, as you’ve already seen with your server.

                • stonedemoman@lemmy.world
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                  1 year ago

                  Not one hour ago you were assuming I was some idiot that can’t get linux to work because I advocate for preference. Get your two-faced shit out of here. Your noninclusive group of iconoclasts has done way more to push me away than any Windows community ever could.

                  You freely admit you can’t get linux to work properly, yet suppose to lecture everyone what they are and are not free to discuss about this very same topic you admit you can’t get a handle on.