It’s literally how we got countries like Greece, Turkey, Armenia, Serbia, Croatia
not really. with those countries it was through warfare during the collapse of a larger national/nation like entitiy. Israel was a mixture of a gift from the british and a betrayal of palestinians to palestinians, backed by rich people buying land from landlords who didn’t give a shit.
Then through the six day war, israel did their own warfare (supported by much more potent powers than the palestinian side), and grabbed everything they wanted, but gave it up during the ceasefire , ceding back to…
Drawing a line on a map and saying Jews go this side and Muslims go this side
Which isn’t want happened with the said countries
the Druze, the Assyrians, the Palestinians, the Kurds
Unfortunately for these poeple groups, they did not recieve the same support israel did during their territory bid/larger national/nation like entitiy’s collapse.
Drawing a line on a map and saying Jews go this side and Muslims go this side
Which isn’t want happened with the said countries
To be a bit more constructive than what I wrote in my previous comment: ethnicity was very often defined using religion in the Balkans:
After the Greek war of independence, Christian former Ottoman subjects renamed themselves as “Greek”. At the Treaty of Lausanne, this went further and Christians in Anatolia were declared Greek and forced to move to Greece, whereas Mulsims in Greece were declared Turks and forced to move to Greece.
During the “Struggle for Macedonia”, adherence to the Constantinople Patriarchate made someone Greek, adherence to the Sofia Exarchate made someone Bulgarian.
Bosniaks, Serbs and Croats share the same language. At the origin, the difference was pretty much religious and maps neatly to Muslim, Orthodox, and Catholic.
The only Balkan people that seem to have somehow miraculously overcome the religious fragmentation of ethnic identity are the Albanians.
Sure thing, I haven’t replied to your other comment yet because it’s a lot to unpack and understand, and it’s not convenient yet; but with this post you bring up some more salient points I haven’t considered. My POV has been more the breakup of Yugoslavia, which felt like a conflict over territory by groups of people, wheras Israel’s was more of a “straight lines drawn on maps”. I was not aware of the specific historical motivations and perspectives for the yugoslav wars.
You might want to refine your other post a bit. I’m still interested in responding to you, just later. Thank you for having the self reflection to analyse your previous statements and provide clarifications.
not really. with those countries it was through warfare during the collapse of a larger national/nation like entitiy. Israel was a mixture of a gift from the british and a betrayal of palestinians to palestinians, backed by rich people buying land from landlords who didn’t give a shit. Then through the six day war, israel did their own warfare (supported by much more potent powers than the palestinian side), and grabbed everything they wanted, but gave it up during the ceasefire , ceding back to…
Unfortunately for these poeple groups, they did not recieve the same support israel did during their territory bid/larger national/nation like entitiy’s collapse.
So? Each nationalism is different in its details. And it’s very obvious that Israel is also an offshoot of the Ottoman collapse, in the same way that Cyprus is, i.e, indirectly via the British. These details are irrelevant to my main point, which is that Jews (more specifically, those Jews who identify as “ethnically Jews”, for others it’s just their religion) also have national rights (no more, no less) than other ethnic groups.
And zionists have not done anything other extremist nationalists haven’t done in the region. Genocide? Ask the Armenians to tell you about the Turks and the Azeris. Colonization? Ask the Greeks what we did in Macedonia. Occupation? Ask the Turks what they did in Cyprus. Ethnic cleansing? Ask the Serbs, and the Croats before. Irridentism? Oh boy, welcome to Balkan. Deny the existence of another oppressed ethnic group? Ask the Macedonians about the Bulgarians and the Greeks. Apartheid? Well, OK, conceded. I guess this one is unique to them, nobody else managed to do this. But not for lack of trying, instead probably due to technological limitations: The Greeks tried it out a bit in Thrace for some decades and the Greek Cypriots tried to do it for a decade or so before the Turkish invasion, but the Israelis have taken it to another level. But this is all details.
My main argument stands: ethnic Jews have exactly the same(*) rights to national self determination as every other ethnic group in this part of the world. No more and no less. There is nothing cosmically special about Jews or their nationalism.
Which isn’t want happened with the said countries
I actually know my own family history, thank you very much.
(*) I.e., no more and no less.
To be clear: we are on the timeline where ethnic jews are claiming much much much more than what is their right. Zionism is out of hand, and that’s an understatement. The Israelis are acting out a genocidal mania that echoes the Armenian genocide at this point. This is not an argument to excuse Israel in anything. This is an argument against putting jewish nationalism, i.e., zionism, in some special evil place. In fact, I would argue the exact opposite: other balkan and near east nationalisms that now enjoy an aura of european respectability, like my Greek compatriots, need to be critically examined precisely through the lens of zionism: we are not that different in our shittiness than they are. If a Greek or a Turk declares themself an anti-zionist while clinging to Greek/Turkish national myths of taking back Constantinople or winning back the Ottoman Empire, well that says something about us too.
not really. with those countries it was through warfare during the collapse of a larger national/nation like entitiy. Israel was a mixture of a gift from the british and a betrayal of palestinians to palestinians, backed by rich people buying land from landlords who didn’t give a shit.
Then through the six day war, israel did their own warfare (supported by much more potent powers than the palestinian side), and grabbed everything they wanted, but gave it up during the ceasefire , ceding back to…
Which isn’t want happened with the said countries
Unfortunately for these poeple groups, they did not recieve the same support israel did during their territory bid/larger national/nation like entitiy’s collapse.
To be a bit more constructive than what I wrote in my previous comment: ethnicity was very often defined using religion in the Balkans:
The only Balkan people that seem to have somehow miraculously overcome the religious fragmentation of ethnic identity are the Albanians.
Sure thing, I haven’t replied to your other comment yet because it’s a lot to unpack and understand, and it’s not convenient yet; but with this post you bring up some more salient points I haven’t considered. My POV has been more the breakup of Yugoslavia, which felt like a conflict over territory by groups of people, wheras Israel’s was more of a “straight lines drawn on maps”. I was not aware of the specific historical motivations and perspectives for the yugoslav wars.
You might want to refine your other post a bit. I’m still interested in responding to you, just later. Thank you for having the self reflection to analyse your previous statements and provide clarifications.
So? Each nationalism is different in its details. And it’s very obvious that Israel is also an offshoot of the Ottoman collapse, in the same way that Cyprus is, i.e, indirectly via the British. These details are irrelevant to my main point, which is that Jews (more specifically, those Jews who identify as “ethnically Jews”, for others it’s just their religion) also have national rights (no more, no less) than other ethnic groups.
And zionists have not done anything other extremist nationalists haven’t done in the region. Genocide? Ask the Armenians to tell you about the Turks and the Azeris. Colonization? Ask the Greeks what we did in Macedonia. Occupation? Ask the Turks what they did in Cyprus. Ethnic cleansing? Ask the Serbs, and the Croats before. Irridentism? Oh boy, welcome to Balkan. Deny the existence of another oppressed ethnic group? Ask the Macedonians about the Bulgarians and the Greeks. Apartheid? Well, OK, conceded. I guess this one is unique to them, nobody else managed to do this. But not for lack of trying, instead probably due to technological limitations: The Greeks tried it out a bit in Thrace for some decades and the Greek Cypriots tried to do it for a decade or so before the Turkish invasion, but the Israelis have taken it to another level. But this is all details.
My main argument stands: ethnic Jews have exactly the same(*) rights to national self determination as every other ethnic group in this part of the world. No more and no less. There is nothing cosmically special about Jews or their nationalism.
I actually know my own family history, thank you very much.
(*) I.e., no more and no less.
To be clear: we are on the timeline where ethnic jews are claiming much much much more than what is their right. Zionism is out of hand, and that’s an understatement. The Israelis are acting out a genocidal mania that echoes the Armenian genocide at this point. This is not an argument to excuse Israel in anything. This is an argument against putting jewish nationalism, i.e., zionism, in some special evil place. In fact, I would argue the exact opposite: other balkan and near east nationalisms that now enjoy an aura of european respectability, like my Greek compatriots, need to be critically examined precisely through the lens of zionism: we are not that different in our shittiness than they are. If a Greek or a Turk declares themself an anti-zionist while clinging to Greek/Turkish national myths of taking back Constantinople or winning back the Ottoman Empire, well that says something about us too.