if you argue that big corrupt governments are a product of the capitalist system, then ill argue big oppressive governments are a product of the communist system
at the end of the day, i think both of these systems can work in theory, the problem is that neither one of these systems are implemented properly
as long fundamental human values such as ethics, morality, justice, equality and democracy are not valued, it doesn’t matter which system you choose, it’s not gonna work
And you’d be wrong to argue that because communist system produces governments that actually represent people. At the end of the day, you should spend some time actually learning about the subject you’re attempting to debate instead of wasting everyone’s time writing musings born out of ignorance.
so are you arguing that big communist governments such as china and north korea (and in the past soviet union) are not oppressive or their oppressiveness have nothing to do with communist system?
I can say that with absolute confidence having personally grown up in USSR. Similarly, if you look at the public opinions from China or Cuba it’s pretty clear nobody is feeling oppressed. You can even login in to Xiaohongshu yourself and talk to people in China and see they’re not oppressed. Seems that all the people oppressed by communists are either scum bag capitalist or they exist solely in the deranged minds of western libs.
i didn’t grow up in ussr, however another user who did apparently didn’t have the same experience with you and there’s also a wikipedia page for human rights in soviet union which also contradicts your experience: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_the_Soviet_Union
Ah yes, everybody in China is afraid to speak their mind. Imagine being a grown ass adult and genuinely believing that. I guess I shouldn’t be surprised given that you evidently form all your opinions based on wikipedia.
Weirdly, pretty much every western study on China shows that people actually living in China see their country as being more democratic than people living in US do.
Maybe there is no conspiracy here and vast majority of people in China genuinely live happy lives, and you just can’t accept that because of your biases.
Meanwhile, the user who is disagreeing with me is listing absolute nonsense as examples of supposed oppression which I already addressed in my other reply.
@yogthos@ngn If you say that having grown up in USSR you did not feel oppressed, that only means to me that you or your family were part of the ruling class. I also grew up in USSR and while I did enjoy free education and healthcare, there was a fair bit of oppression as well. As examples: freedom of religion, freedom to travel, freedom of ownership, among others. I am not saying that it was impossible to live there, but certain activities were severely “frowned upon”.
My family was a regular working family. I don’t know what this ruling class you speak of is either. Even if you just look at the background of all the leaders of USSR, they all have regular working class background. Meanwhile, last I checked churches existed in USSR, right to personal property also existed. The reality is that every society places some restrictions on personal freedoms, but claiming that the restrictions USSR placed on people were oppressive is the height of intellectual dishonesty.
@yogthos If you don’t know by USSR’s ruling class, then I question your claim of having grown up there, or at least think you were too young to understand the societal structure before it collapsed/you moved from there. While churches technically existed, worship was in the grey area and only tolerated if we’re talking about Orthodox Christians. If we talk about other religions, Islam or Judaism, then all bets are off.
Existence of a ruling class implies there’s a class of people separate from the rest of society, such as the oligarchy in US where you live. That’s the actual oppressive society that you happen to be a member of. This was demonstrably not the case in USSR. Let’s take look at the background of the leaders of USSR to drive the point home. Khrushchev was born in a village in a peasant family, Brezhnev was a son of a metalworker, Gorbachev came from a peasant family as well. If it was as you claim, then people like this could have never risen to top leadership positions. The reason it was possible for a regular person from a village to rise to the top of the political structure was precisely because USSR was an egalitarian society that provided opportunity to everyone. The fact that you claim to have lived in USSR and don’t even understand the basics of how it worked is frankly embarrassing.
These big corrupt governments are a direct product of how the capitalist system functions. Politics are fundamentally inseparable from economics.
if you argue that big corrupt governments are a product of the capitalist system, then ill argue big oppressive governments are a product of the communist system
at the end of the day, i think both of these systems can work in theory, the problem is that neither one of these systems are implemented properly
as long fundamental human values such as ethics, morality, justice, equality and democracy are not valued, it doesn’t matter which system you choose, it’s not gonna work
And you’d be wrong to argue that because communist system produces governments that actually represent people. At the end of the day, you should spend some time actually learning about the subject you’re attempting to debate instead of wasting everyone’s time writing musings born out of ignorance.
so are you arguing that big communist governments such as china and north korea (and in the past soviet union) are not oppressive or their oppressiveness have nothing to do with communist system?
I can say that with absolute confidence having personally grown up in USSR. Similarly, if you look at the public opinions from China or Cuba it’s pretty clear nobody is feeling oppressed. You can even login in to Xiaohongshu yourself and talk to people in China and see they’re not oppressed. Seems that all the people oppressed by communists are either scum bag capitalist or they exist solely in the deranged minds of western libs.
or maybe they are scared to say that they are oppressed because they know that the app you are talking about is heavily moderated by the government? see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xiaohongshu#Content_moderation_and_censorship
also see https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_China
i didn’t grow up in ussr, however another user who did apparently didn’t have the same experience with you and there’s also a wikipedia page for human rights in soviet union which also contradicts your experience: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_the_Soviet_Union
Ah yes, everybody in China is afraid to speak their mind. Imagine being a grown ass adult and genuinely believing that. I guess I shouldn’t be surprised given that you evidently form all your opinions based on wikipedia.
Weirdly, pretty much every western study on China shows that people actually living in China see their country as being more democratic than people living in US do.
Maybe there is no conspiracy here and vast majority of people in China genuinely live happy lives, and you just can’t accept that because of your biases.
Meanwhile, the user who is disagreeing with me is listing absolute nonsense as examples of supposed oppression which I already addressed in my other reply.
@yogthos @ngn If you say that having grown up in USSR you did not feel oppressed, that only means to me that you or your family were part of the ruling class. I also grew up in USSR and while I did enjoy free education and healthcare, there was a fair bit of oppression as well. As examples: freedom of religion, freedom to travel, freedom of ownership, among others. I am not saying that it was impossible to live there, but certain activities were severely “frowned upon”.
My family was a regular working family. I don’t know what this ruling class you speak of is either. Even if you just look at the background of all the leaders of USSR, they all have regular working class background. Meanwhile, last I checked churches existed in USSR, right to personal property also existed. The reality is that every society places some restrictions on personal freedoms, but claiming that the restrictions USSR placed on people were oppressive is the height of intellectual dishonesty.
@yogthos If you don’t know by USSR’s ruling class, then I question your claim of having grown up there, or at least think you were too young to understand the societal structure before it collapsed/you moved from there. While churches technically existed, worship was in the grey area and only tolerated if we’re talking about Orthodox Christians. If we talk about other religions, Islam or Judaism, then all bets are off.
Existence of a ruling class implies there’s a class of people separate from the rest of society, such as the oligarchy in US where you live. That’s the actual oppressive society that you happen to be a member of. This was demonstrably not the case in USSR. Let’s take look at the background of the leaders of USSR to drive the point home. Khrushchev was born in a village in a peasant family, Brezhnev was a son of a metalworker, Gorbachev came from a peasant family as well. If it was as you claim, then people like this could have never risen to top leadership positions. The reason it was possible for a regular person from a village to rise to the top of the political structure was precisely because USSR was an egalitarian society that provided opportunity to everyone. The fact that you claim to have lived in USSR and don’t even understand the basics of how it worked is frankly embarrassing.