Elkins Park in Montgomery County has several synagogues ... and one large monument to Nazi collaborators. Many people had no idea it existed until recently.
This is about one particular unit with history of war crimes. Different national legions of Wehrmacht and even Waffen SS have different record. I’m aware of some not so bad.
but I can understand some Ukrainians considering them to be freedom fighters against the Soviets, especially in 2023
I can agree that some “forest brothers” in1960s really were freedom fighters. But these guys - sure as hell not.
And Zelenskyy agrees with you. Any part they had in torching Polish villages or other atrocities are horrendous.
To be honest, i am a bit conflcted about it all. This wasn’t a statue put up to help bolster segregation 100 years after the fact, and I just wanted to point out that the Ukrainian struggle for independence has been ongoing and real, regardless of how ugly it may look. It is stuff like this that is fueling the propaganda of Russian’s invasion as an attempt to de-nazify Ukraine.
It is stuff like this that is fueling the propaganda of Russian’s invasion as an attempt to de-nazify Ukraine.
Wanted to say that nah, that’s not really a working mechanism… But suppose some people buy it. What even then, we should just whitewash crimes because recognizing them may strengthen propaganda in some particular case?
Hope not, but de-nazifing Ukraine is still a prevalent talking point. It is also interesting to me this monument is only becoming an issue now.
War is hell and there are evils always perpetuated on both sides (and i hate both sides arguments! Sorry!). I do believe intentions are important too, especially as in war people usually need to choose between the lesser of evils, which again comes with their own perspective. Being told as a Ukrainian you would only “fight the Bolsheviks” seems like it could have seen as a pretty good deal, especially when combined with the naive thought that supporting the Nazi effort could lead to an independent Ukraine. Again, naive but understandable. When focused on that perspective, and with consideration that they were separated from much of the rest of the SS in being charged with war crimes, I am a little more sympathetic. How many towns and villages did the US burn in WWII and in other wars? Sherman’s March to the Sea? Should we tear down those memorials too? I’d rather not know some of the shit my father did in the Vietnam War on behalf of the US government, but I can’t bring myself to curse his service. He just married an amazing Ukrainian woman a few years ago too…
It’s easy to just jump to conclusions. No, don’t whitewash history, but having a more nuanced perspective I think is important. To be clear, I would be right there with a pitchfork if this was a monument to the Dirlewanger or Kaminski Brigades.
This is about one particular unit with history of war crimes. Different national legions of Wehrmacht and even Waffen SS have different record. I’m aware of some not so bad.
I can agree that some “forest brothers” in1960s really were freedom fighters. But these guys - sure as hell not.
And Zelenskyy agrees with you. Any part they had in torching Polish villages or other atrocities are horrendous.
To be honest, i am a bit conflcted about it all. This wasn’t a statue put up to help bolster segregation 100 years after the fact, and I just wanted to point out that the Ukrainian struggle for independence has been ongoing and real, regardless of how ugly it may look. It is stuff like this that is fueling the propaganda of Russian’s invasion as an attempt to de-nazify Ukraine.
Wanted to say that nah, that’s not really a working mechanism… But suppose some people buy it. What even then, we should just whitewash crimes because recognizing them may strengthen propaganda in some particular case?
Hope not, but de-nazifing Ukraine is still a prevalent talking point. It is also interesting to me this monument is only becoming an issue now.
War is hell and there are evils always perpetuated on both sides (and i hate both sides arguments! Sorry!). I do believe intentions are important too, especially as in war people usually need to choose between the lesser of evils, which again comes with their own perspective. Being told as a Ukrainian you would only “fight the Bolsheviks” seems like it could have seen as a pretty good deal, especially when combined with the naive thought that supporting the Nazi effort could lead to an independent Ukraine. Again, naive but understandable. When focused on that perspective, and with consideration that they were separated from much of the rest of the SS in being charged with war crimes, I am a little more sympathetic. How many towns and villages did the US burn in WWII and in other wars? Sherman’s March to the Sea? Should we tear down those memorials too? I’d rather not know some of the shit my father did in the Vietnam War on behalf of the US government, but I can’t bring myself to curse his service. He just married an amazing Ukrainian woman a few years ago too…
It’s easy to just jump to conclusions. No, don’t whitewash history, but having a more nuanced perspective I think is important. To be clear, I would be right there with a pitchfork if this was a monument to the Dirlewanger or Kaminski Brigades.
OK, I agree.