As if this is somehow down to “patriarchy”? It takes two to tango! Denying the role of women in the shaping of someone’s ability to handle and process emotion is really a disservice to anyone who wants equality between sexes. Blaming others is not the way to change.
when feminists use the word “patriarchy” they mean exactly what you describe here. your misconception of the term is what is getting in your way here—there is no blame to any one, only the structure. highly recommended you read more of bell hooks’ work as she does an excellent job of explaining yours and other misconceptions with a focus on accessibility for a male audience :)
A term inherently sexist to supposedly describe something else. Trying to shift responsibility. Sorry, that is gas lighting. You can have one, but not both. Chose and let your choice speak for which part of the problem you are on.
“It is a difficult matter for women to accept their role as servants to life, and they only succeed in so far as they find compensations in the society that subjugates them. These compensations are transmitted from mother to daughter, perpetuating the subjugation.”
(The Second Sex)
“The fact that we are human beings is infinitely more important than all the peculiarities that distinguish human beings from one another; however, women, in submitting to patriarchal society, often become the most fervent defenders of their own oppression.”
(The Second Sex)
“Women and men alike have been socialized to accept sexist thought and action. As a consequence, women can be just as sexist as men.”
(Feminism is for Everybody)
Emphases mine. Both notable feminist voices. Hope these can get you started on the path to overcoming your passed down misconceptions. And don’t worry—it’s not your own fault that you have this confusion— patriarchy’s greatest self defense is in subverting (lying about) the meaning of feminist language to you.
Ok, so you link texts that say that women (as well as feminism, obviously) can be just as sexist as men, yet you take affront to my pointing out that the terminology used is sexist?
Which part of it is it that you have such a hard time coming to terms with? That women, by default, is not always the victim, or is it that men is not always the perpetrator? These terms you use to defend the sexism in feminism is getting in the way of what needs to be done.
That’s not your fault, you’ve been ingrained with it. The fact that you need an A-level university course to be able to make the mental gymnastics needed to understand such language without revolting speaks for its own. Or how was it you phrased it “get you started on the path…”
“patriarchy” is literally just a greek term for a household that had a man at the head. there is no blame inherent in the term, as it describes a system, not people.
so yes. men, by default, are not always the perpetrator, and women, by default, are not always the victim. we agree on this. the system of patriarchy hurts everyone and feminism is for everyone. you continue to adamantly disagree with this over a misunderstanding of a single word.
i haven’t taken any university course on this, despite your assertion. you are just getting one word wrong, and for this again i recomend you read bell hooks; she writes short works in a way that is meant to be accessible to laypeople like us.
yet you take affront to my pointing out that the terminology used is sexist?
A system that enforces gender roles is of course going to be sexist by definition. It would be incredibly difficult to talk about a system with strictly enforced gender roles without talking about gender or their roles.
Which part of it is it that you have such a hard time coming to terms with? That women, by default, is not always the victim, or is it that men is not always the perpetrator?
That is exactly what is being said in the OP, so I don’t understand what you’re disagreeing with here.
There is plenty of women who uphold these toxic ideas and reinforce these structures too.
It is wrong to consider “patriarchy” or any other social construct to be the sole responsibility of any one gender, and as long as we are in the blame-game stage, like @[email protected] still seems to be, it will slow us down.
However i find it important to understand where this could come from. E.g. women, in particular mothers, who have been reinforcing toxic masculinity or femininity could be perceived as the major source for individuals because their mother has been the one reinforcing it. For other people it would be the father or other male figures in their lives, so they consider it to come exclusively from men.
Anectodtically my perception is that there is a problem with showing emotions in front of others in general in western societies, that is reinforcing toxic masculinity, but transcendents “patriarchy” as an issue, as many societies considered more patriarchal allow display of emotions both for women and men more freely.
Blame game stage? Perhaps? My view is that there are few innocents, but the terminology and discourse is very strict in it’s perspective.
Same as any other discrimination. There is always one part that has it worse, but it is never a one way street. Perhaps easiest to see with age, where each age group has their resentments against the others. Both are equally generalisations, though. Equally wrong.
i dont see where it says is just men meows, cuz women can be patriarchal an support patriarchy too, so saying its patriarchal is more about society as a whole, men and women an evryones really
I highly recommend reading the rest of the book. bell hooks acknowledges the roles that women play in inflicting the harms on boys and men. Reading that book was the most understood I had ever felt as a cis man who until then didn’t really know what feminism was about.
As if this is somehow down to “patriarchy”? It takes two to tango! Denying the role of women in the shaping of someone’s ability to handle and process emotion is really a disservice to anyone who wants equality between sexes. Blaming others is not the way to change.
when feminists use the word “patriarchy” they mean exactly what you describe here. your misconception of the term is what is getting in your way here—there is no blame to any one, only the structure. highly recommended you read more of bell hooks’ work as she does an excellent job of explaining yours and other misconceptions with a focus on accessibility for a male audience :)
A term inherently sexist to supposedly describe something else. Trying to shift responsibility. Sorry, that is gas lighting. You can have one, but not both. Chose and let your choice speak for which part of the problem you are on.
Simone de Beauvoir
Simone de Beauvoir
“It is a difficult matter for women to accept their role as servants to life, and they only succeed in so far as they find compensations in the society that subjugates them. These compensations are transmitted from mother to daughter, perpetuating the subjugation.”
(The Second Sex)
“The fact that we are human beings is infinitely more important than all the peculiarities that distinguish human beings from one another; however, women, in submitting to patriarchal society, often become the most fervent defenders of their own oppression.”
(The Second Sex)
bell hooks
bell hooks
(Feminism is for Everybody)
Emphases mine. Both notable feminist voices. Hope these can get you started on the path to overcoming your passed down misconceptions. And don’t worry—it’s not your own fault that you have this confusion— patriarchy’s greatest self defense is in subverting (lying about) the meaning of feminist language to you.
Ok, so you link texts that say that women (as well as feminism, obviously) can be just as sexist as men, yet you take affront to my pointing out that the terminology used is sexist?
Which part of it is it that you have such a hard time coming to terms with? That women, by default, is not always the victim, or is it that men is not always the perpetrator? These terms you use to defend the sexism in feminism is getting in the way of what needs to be done.
That’s not your fault, you’ve been ingrained with it. The fact that you need an A-level university course to be able to make the mental gymnastics needed to understand such language without revolting speaks for its own. Or how was it you phrased it “get you started on the path…”
precisely what @[email protected] said.
“patriarchy” is literally just a greek term for a household that had a man at the head. there is no blame inherent in the term, as it describes a system, not people.
so yes. men, by default, are not always the perpetrator, and women, by default, are not always the victim. we agree on this. the system of patriarchy hurts everyone and feminism is for everyone. you continue to adamantly disagree with this over a misunderstanding of a single word.
i haven’t taken any university course on this, despite your assertion. you are just getting one word wrong, and for this again i recomend you read bell hooks; she writes short works in a way that is meant to be accessible to laypeople like us.
Good on you for treating this person with so much patience.
A system that enforces gender roles is of course going to be sexist by definition. It would be incredibly difficult to talk about a system with strictly enforced gender roles without talking about gender or their roles.
That is exactly what is being said in the OP, so I don’t understand what you’re disagreeing with here.
It’s only the way you misconstrued patriarchy that’s at issue here. It disagrees with a fundamental part of the thinking of reducing inequity.
Of course women have been, are, and will be part of the patriarchy. You’re not wrong, people just aren’t happy with the way you expressed yourself.
really sad that you woke up this morning with your listening skills turned off. i wish better and more open minded days for your future ❤️
edit: see https://lemmy.cafe/comment/9072032 for a serious response. apologies for being flippant.
You are so much nicer than me, like wow.
The text: “men make other men feel like shit for having emotions”
This guy: “Wow it’s still clearly the women’s fault, stop blaming other people”
The jokes just write themselves here.
There is plenty of women who uphold these toxic ideas and reinforce these structures too.
It is wrong to consider “patriarchy” or any other social construct to be the sole responsibility of any one gender, and as long as we are in the blame-game stage, like @[email protected] still seems to be, it will slow us down.
However i find it important to understand where this could come from. E.g. women, in particular mothers, who have been reinforcing toxic masculinity or femininity could be perceived as the major source for individuals because their mother has been the one reinforcing it. For other people it would be the father or other male figures in their lives, so they consider it to come exclusively from men.
Anectodtically my perception is that there is a problem with showing emotions in front of others in general in western societies, that is reinforcing toxic masculinity, but transcendents “patriarchy” as an issue, as many societies considered more patriarchal allow display of emotions both for women and men more freely.
Blame game stage? Perhaps? My view is that there are few innocents, but the terminology and discourse is very strict in it’s perspective.
Same as any other discrimination. There is always one part that has it worse, but it is never a one way street. Perhaps easiest to see with age, where each age group has their resentments against the others. Both are equally generalisations, though. Equally wrong.
i dont see where it says is just men meows, cuz women can be patriarchal an support patriarchy too, so saying its patriarchal is more about society as a whole, men and women an evryones really
I highly recommend reading the rest of the book. bell hooks acknowledges the roles that women play in inflicting the harms on boys and men. Reading that book was the most understood I had ever felt as a cis man who until then didn’t really know what feminism was about.