And if you’d talked about their actual ethnic cleansing campaigns you’d have a point, or if it was a point worth bringing up at all in this context of deliberately helping the execution of Generalplan Ost.
You mean like how… the Soviets deliberately helped the execution of Generalplan Ost in assisting Nazi Germany to take massive amounts of Polish lebensraum with plentiful amounts of untermensch for them to massacre?
Are you arguing that Stalin was deliberately helping the plans for the Nazi conquest of the USSR by agreeing to partition a country the Nazis needed no help to conquer?
Are you arguing that Stalin was deliberately helping the plans for the Nazi conquest of the USSR
No, just deliberately helping the plans for the Nazi conquest of the ‘east’ that wasn’t under the USSR’s control. Or was Generalplan Ost only bad insofar as the Soviet Union was targeted, and the Poles deserved their untermensch fate?
by agreeing to partition a country the Nazis needed no help to conquer?
‘Needed no help to conquer’
Fuck’s sake. The Soviet invasion from the east destroyed the Polish military’s entire defence plan. Is this really where we’re at for justification of the Soviets literally assisting the Nazi invasion of a country the Nazis openly wanted to exterminate? “The Nazis would have conquered those filthy Poles anyway”? Are you being fucking serious right now?
I didnt say it was okay, Pug, I said Poland was literally doomed and that’s a fact from the moment the French refused to leave the Line and the British refused to put troops in Poland before the invasion. Their plans meant nothing when they wouldn’t work because they simply didn’t have the tools to win.
I also really don’t like defending Stalin’s obvious class treason and rampant incompetence, and it’s not like you’re wrong that he’s a mass murderer, Pug, it’s just that it’s fucked up and revisionist to compare the Soviet displacement programs to the attempted extermination of half the world.
Their plans meant nothing when they wouldn’t work because they simply didn’t have the tools to win.
Their plan wasn’t to win, their plan was to stall for time for France and Britain to get their asses in gear. A plan which was destroyed by the Soviet invasion. How many Poles died because the Nazis were given half the country with minimal fuss and maximum speed? Not even getting into how many Poles died directly because of Soviet genocide.
You said
Are you arguing that Stalin was deliberately helping the plans for the Nazi conquest of the USSR by agreeing to partition a country the Nazis needed no help to conquer?
And the answer to that is yes, Stalin absolutely was helping the plans for Nazi conquest and genocide by agreeing to partition a country directly targeted for Nazi genocide by employing the full force of the Soviet military against them while said country was already engaged in a desperate war for survival.
I also really don’t like defending Stalin’s obvious class treason and rampant incompetence, and it’s not like you’re wrong that he’s a mass murderer, Pug, it’s just that it’s fucked up and revisionist to compare the Soviet displacement programs to the attempted extermination of half the world.
Fuck, man, at no point have I claimed that the Soviets were just as bad as the Nazis. I HAVE said the Soviets are just as bad as the Finns. I’ve made two claims here:
The Soviets were genocidal towards Poland.
The Soviets and the Finns both collaborated with the Nazis and contributed significantly and knowingly to genocidal Nazi goals with the aid of military force, resulting in the deaths of hundreds of thousands of civilians at minimum, and thus neither really has the high ground on that.
Claiming that the Soviets weren’t running an extermination campaign against the Polish nation, as you repeatedly claimed, contradicts point 1. I emphasized, when you brought it up, that genocides do not have to be literally Nazi-level to be genocides. MOST genocides are not Nazi-level. Even the Holodomor wasn’t Nazi-level, but I would regard anyone playing whataboutism games with it as a genocide-apologist fuck all the same. And I emphasized that the Soviets absolutely cooperated with the Nazis in order to both assist Nazi genocide of Poland (for their own aims of destroying Poland as a security threat) and to pursue genocide of the Polish nation on their own (for their own domestic and strategic goals).
‘Soviet displacement programs’ is, again, downplaying what was a very real program of genocide. If I called Generalplan Ost’s outlines for the dispersion of the remaining non-slaughtered Slavic peoples as a ‘displacement program’, I would be downplaying Nazi plans of genocide just the same.
Ah yes, inaccurate or misleading claims like [checks notes] easily verifiable campaigns of genocide by the Soviets?
And if you’d talked about their actual ethnic cleansing campaigns you’d have a point, or if it was a point worth bringing up at all in this context of deliberately helping the execution of Generalplan Ost.
You mean like how… the Soviets deliberately helped the execution of Generalplan Ost in assisting Nazi Germany to take massive amounts of Polish lebensraum with plentiful amounts of untermensch for them to massacre?
Are you arguing that Stalin was deliberately helping the plans for the Nazi conquest of the USSR by agreeing to partition a country the Nazis needed no help to conquer?
No, just deliberately helping the plans for the Nazi conquest of the ‘east’ that wasn’t under the USSR’s control. Or was Generalplan Ost only bad insofar as the Soviet Union was targeted, and the Poles deserved their untermensch fate?
‘Needed no help to conquer’
Fuck’s sake. The Soviet invasion from the east destroyed the Polish military’s entire defence plan. Is this really where we’re at for justification of the Soviets literally assisting the Nazi invasion of a country the Nazis openly wanted to exterminate? “The Nazis would have conquered those filthy Poles anyway”? Are you being fucking serious right now?
I didnt say it was okay, Pug, I said Poland was literally doomed and that’s a fact from the moment the French refused to leave the Line and the British refused to put troops in Poland before the invasion. Their plans meant nothing when they wouldn’t work because they simply didn’t have the tools to win.
I also really don’t like defending Stalin’s obvious class treason and rampant incompetence, and it’s not like you’re wrong that he’s a mass murderer, Pug, it’s just that it’s fucked up and revisionist to compare the Soviet displacement programs to the attempted extermination of half the world.
Their plan wasn’t to win, their plan was to stall for time for France and Britain to get their asses in gear. A plan which was destroyed by the Soviet invasion. How many Poles died because the Nazis were given half the country with minimal fuss and maximum speed? Not even getting into how many Poles died directly because of Soviet genocide.
You said
And the answer to that is yes, Stalin absolutely was helping the plans for Nazi conquest and genocide by agreeing to partition a country directly targeted for Nazi genocide by employing the full force of the Soviet military against them while said country was already engaged in a desperate war for survival.
Fuck, man, at no point have I claimed that the Soviets were just as bad as the Nazis. I HAVE said the Soviets are just as bad as the Finns. I’ve made two claims here:
The Soviets were genocidal towards Poland.
The Soviets and the Finns both collaborated with the Nazis and contributed significantly and knowingly to genocidal Nazi goals with the aid of military force, resulting in the deaths of hundreds of thousands of civilians at minimum, and thus neither really has the high ground on that.
Claiming that the Soviets weren’t running an extermination campaign against the Polish nation, as you repeatedly claimed, contradicts point 1. I emphasized, when you brought it up, that genocides do not have to be literally Nazi-level to be genocides. MOST genocides are not Nazi-level. Even the Holodomor wasn’t Nazi-level, but I would regard anyone playing whataboutism games with it as a genocide-apologist fuck all the same. And I emphasized that the Soviets absolutely cooperated with the Nazis in order to both assist Nazi genocide of Poland (for their own aims of destroying Poland as a security threat) and to pursue genocide of the Polish nation on their own (for their own domestic and strategic goals).
‘Soviet displacement programs’ is, again, downplaying what was a very real program of genocide. If I called Generalplan Ost’s outlines for the dispersion of the remaining non-slaughtered Slavic peoples as a ‘displacement program’, I would be downplaying Nazi plans of genocide just the same.
Displacement programs are a recognized type of genocide, that’s literally just the specific term for it.