Long before Israel, Americans been sending weapons to Saudi Arabia the people who took out the twin towers, and nobody seems to care.
Patriots care. We just don’t have a lot of them in office - most people are for sale.
“Patriots” who are either too aloof to get involved or just become traitors along the way to power
since when is Bin Laden + a couple of goons the whole people of Saudi Arabia ?
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it’s called synecdoche!
You forgot the part where Saudi Arabia started courting American aid and literally expelled Bin Laden for being anti-American. That doesn’t make SA “the good guys” but it makes a huge difference in how your framing paints SA’s position and involvement with Al Qaeda during the 2000s. Their history is long and complicated, but during the war on terror, SA was much more aligned with the US against Al Qaeda and Bin Laden
they did say “the people”
Saudi Arabia, the people who
Yes, in reference to “Saudi Arabia”, which refers to their government
I added the comma for clarification, but that’s what was said
They didn’t say “the people of Saudi Arabia did 9/11”
The international mujahadeen movement was born in Saudi Arabia; funded by Saudi Arabia; created out of a quasi death cult of islam called Wahabism founded in Saudi Arabia; bin Laden was a major figure in Saudi politics and society and from one of the richest, non-Royal families in the country; almost all the members of Al-Queda were Saudi.
If Saudi foreign policy and money created the mujahadeen, then they are Saudi.
You forgot the part where Saudi Arabia started courting American aid and literally expelled Bin Laden for being anti-American. That doesn’t make SA “the good guys” but it makes a huge difference in how your framing paints SA’s position and involvement with Al Qaeda during the 2000s. Their history is long and complicated, but during the war on terror, SA was much more aligned with the US against Al Qaeda and Bin Laden
Of course, it’s far too nuanced an issue to boil down in a couple of sentences but such is the nature of online discourse.
I see Al quaeda, and in a more general sense, Sunni extremism as a whole as the child of Saudi Arabia. The bombing of the US Cole was probably the point when the Saudi regime realised that exporting Salafist Jihad abroad had bigger consequences than they intended (attack regional opponents like Israel and Iran) and that it was quickly getting out of control and so they attempted to distance themselves in case America and Britain turned around and cut off their military aid.
I’m not sure how much the kingdom was involved in Al Qaeda’s early years, unless you count American-Saudi-British funding of MAK/other Mujahideen during the soviet-afghan war. However, it’s clear Al Qaeda was already declaring against the kingdom a couple years before the USS Cole in '98. But sure I’d see Al Qaeda being a child of SA in a way similar to the KKK being a child of the US
Source?
everything is connected, jon.
I know its a shitpost but since when is the US funding hamas / hezbollah (i assume that what the right one is) did i miss some conspiracy?
It’s a bit of a stretch, but Netanyahu used to allow Qatari funds through to Hamas and Qatar is home to the largest USA military base in the middle east. So the USA government spend money in Qatar and Qatar send money to Hamas, so one could argue that some USA tax money ended up with Hamas that way.
But in the same way all economies and trade are interconnected. It’s not because my garagist gave money to his addict child, who used part of that money to buy drugs, that I’m now suddenly guilty of funding the drug trade. Money goes around.
In a more direct way, there is video evidence of Israeli soldiers delivering briefcases full of money to Hamas leaders. Netanyahu and his cronies want Hamas to be in charge of Palestine, because the last thing he needs is a competent and legitimate Palestinian government.
Do you have a source for this? Sounds interesting
A quote from Netanyahu: “Anyone who wants to thwart the establishment of a Palestinian state has to support bolstering Hamas and transferring money to Hamas… This is part of our strategy – to isolate the Palestinians in Gaza from the Palestinians in the West Bank.”
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_support_for_Hamas
I already knew that Israel facilitated transfers of funds from other sources, but I didn’t know that they also did direct funding and transfers. According to that wiki article, Israel was at least certainly doing that in the 1980s and 90s. Not that it really matters, Israel soliciting other parties to give money to Hamas or Israel directly giving money to Hamas, there’s little difference really.
I can’t find anything right away about video evidence, but I wouldn’t be surprised at this point. I’d love a source for that as well.
Isn’t that the Qatar money the above comment was talking about?
Hamas has been siphoning money and materials from the aid provided to Gaza for decades. Palestinians receive tons of aid, mainly from western countries.
I doubt taking some food and water and tents is enough to finance the building of rockets. Those resources are more likely to come from the surrounding countries.
The aid sent to Gaza isn’t just food and water. It includes construction materials, machinery, all kinds of equipment, and simply money to pay salaries and buy whatever.
Cement and steel to build houses was regularly used to build tunnels for military purposes instead. Water pipes were used to build rockets and so on.
Also like, food and water you acquire is food and water you don’t have to purchase or otherwise gain, meaning you can use the resources you would have used on food on military operations instead.
De-development via the Gaza Occupation
The Israeli imposed closure on Gaza began in 1991, temporarily, becoming permanent in 1993. The barrier began around Gaza around 1972.
Between July 1971 and February 1972, Sharon enjoyed considerable success. During this time, the entire Strip (apart from the Rafah area) was sealed off by a ring of security fences 53 miles in length, with few entrypoints. Today, their effects live on: there are only three points of entry to Gaza—Erez, Nahal Oz, and Rafah.
Perhaps the most dramatic and painful aspect of Sharon’s campaign was the widening of roads in the refugee camps to facilitate military access. Israel built nearly 200 miles of security roads and destroyed thousands of refugee dwellings as part of the widening process.’ In August 1971, for example, the Israeli army destroyed 7,729 rooms (approximately 2,000 houses) in three vola- tile camps, displacing 15,855 refugees: 7,217 from Jabalya, 4,836 from Shati, and 3,802 from Rafah.
- Page 105
Through 1993 Israel imposed a one-way system of tariffs and duties on the importation of goods through its borders; leaving Israel for Gaza, however, no tariffs or other regulations applied. Thus, for Israeli exports to Gaza, the Strip was treated as part of Israel; but for Gazan exports to Israel, the Strip was treated as a foreign entity subject to various “non-tariff barriers.” This placed Israel at a distinct advantage for trading and limited Gaza’s access to Israeli and foreign markets. Gazans had no recourse against such policies, being totally unable to protect themselves with tariffs or exchange rate controls. Thus, they had to pay more for highly protected Israeli products than they would if they had some control over their own economy. Such policies deprived the occupied territories of significant customs revenue, estimated at $118-$176 million in 1986. (Arguably, the economic terms of the Gaza—Jericho Agreement modify the situation only slightly.')
- page 240
In a report released in May 2015, the World Bank revealed that as a result of Israel’s blockade and OPE, Gaza’s manufacturing sector shrank by as much as 60 percent over eight years while real per capita income is 31 percent lower than it was 20 years ago. The report also stated that the blockade alone is responsible for a 50 percent decrease in Gaza’s GDP since 2007. Furthermore, OPE (com- bined with the tunnel closure) exacerbated an already grave situation by reducing Gaza’s economy by an additional $460 million.
- Page 402
- The Gaza Strip: The Political Economy of De-Development - Third Edition by Sara M. Roy
Blockade, including Aid
Hamas began twenty years into the occupation during the first Intifada, with the goal of ending the occupation. Collective punishment has been a deliberate Israeli tactic for decades with the Dahiya doctrine. Violence such as suicide bombings and rockets escalated in response to Israeli enforcement of the occupation and apartheid.
After the ‘disengagement’ in 2007, this turned into a full blockade; where Israel has had control over the airspace, borders, and sea. Under the guise of ‘dual-use’ Israel has restricted food, allocating a minimum supply leading to over half of Gaza being food insecure; construction materials, medical supplies, and other basic necessities have also been restricted.
The blockade and Israel’s repeated military offensives have had a heavy toll on Gaza’s essential infrastructure and further debilitated its health system and economy, leaving the area in a state of perpetual humanitarian crisis. Indeed, Israel’s collective punishment of Gaza’s civilian population, the majority of whom are children, has created conditions inimical to human life due to shortages of housing, potable water and electricity, and lack of access to essential medicines and medical care, food, educational equipment and building materials.
- Amnesty International Report pg 26-27
Hamas Rockets, Aid, and Tunnels
No evidence of Theft of Aid:
Hamas Rockets are created from unexploded Israeli missiles and old unused water pipes. There is no evidence that they dismantle their own water system.
How did Hamas get the materials needed to build the tunnels? I’m not sure, I have not found any evidence either way. It’s possible that construction materials from humanitarian aid was used, despite being heavily restricted already, it’s also possible that the materials were smuggled in since they are restricted.
The tunnels are not a new concept, this is also how the Vietcong fought off Colonists Powers.
Hamas and other armed resistance groups only end with the end of the Apartheid. That is the reason for their existence and continuation. Hamas has already agreed to no longer govern the Gaza Strip, as long as Palestinians receive liberation and a unified government can take place.
Sources
During the current war, Hamas officials have said that the group does not want to return to ruling Gaza and that it advocates for forming a government of technocrats to be agreed upon by the various Palestinian factions. That government would then prepare for elections in Gaza and the West Bank, with the intention of forming a unified government.
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What Is Hamas? - Council on Foreign Relations
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What Does Hamas Actually Want? - NY Mag
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Hamas Election - Snopes
Other reports about how Israel is an Apartheid State: Human Rights Watch Report, B’TSelem Report with quick Explainer
Hamas officials should be held accountable for all war crimes committed, same as all Israeli officials. That said, there are many parallels between the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising and Gaza.
In the Shadow of the Holocaust by Masha Gessen, the situation in Gaza is compared to the Warsaw Ghettos. The comparison was also made by a Palestinian poet who was later killed by an Israeli airstrike. Adi Callai, an Israeli, has also written on the parallels in his article The Gaza Ghetto Uprising and expanded upon in his corresponding video
Are you suggesting that aid be stopped completely because we can’t guarantee that none of it is being used for military purposes?
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No. The way aid gets distributed needs to change. UNRWA is part of the problem and need reform at least.
Hamas and other extremist organizations should be removed from power. Gazans also need a political perspective towards a good and prosperous life, trade and free travel.
“Hamas and other extremist organizations” I personally consider the government of Israel to be an extremist organization, and would sure love to see it removed from power.
I would also like to see a different government in Israel.
“my gasoline dollars” would have been more accurate.
Another thing to consider is that the US typically sells weapons to Israel (with some exceptions), meaning that’s mostly not our tax dollars.
Yes, you might have read my comment above clearly noting exceptions. The bulk of weapons going to Israel are purchased by Israel. Whenever you hear something like “the Biden Admin is sending a $50 billion arms package to Israel,” that’s Israel buying weapons, because Congress has to approve gifts/aid.
Lots of stolen US aid money
Spending on missile defense is one of the only parts of the military budget I’m alright with. Heck, why not expand it, intercept every missile targeting civilians regardless of who fired it.
Ugh Lemmy’s turned into the worst part of reddit faster than reddit did.
The community here is worse than Reddit tbh. I think people here are actually meaner and ruder than on Reddit, regardless of the “white knight” mentality here.
Reddit was full of bots but the people are just savvy enough to make an account. Lemmy’s users are not a general representation of the public, but more of the technical kind. You can probably describe most users just by the most popular posts and interactions here. So…
Male Atheist Liberal In their late 20s but majority in their 30s, with a large amount of trekkies in their 40s for some reason. Pc technical, can use a pc well enough to understand above the basic concepts of the best buy laptop the general public use. Too involved in the world affairs causing rigid pessism of most people who don’t share their views. If you don’t think like us you’re one of “them”.
Oh and anonymous keyboard warriors. Everyone can be a “professional” on a subject if they can dissect a comment someone made and Google any relevant information to refute their arguments. It’s pretty much this that makes them ruder.
trekkies in their 40s for some reason. Pc technical, can use a pc well enough to understand above the basic concepts of the best buy laptop the general public use.
I feel attacked, yet also acknowledged.
Yea. That all seems right ha. I agree.
Who could have known the *nix community could be so insular and gatekeepy
100%
Tell me more about the worst parts of reddit, what to look out for.
Look out for cringe comments like this for starters.
