Even with the new 100% tariff on electric vehicles imported from China, BYD would still have the cheapest EV in the US. According to a new report, BYD’s lowest-priced EV would still undercut all US automakers at under $25,000.
After discontinuing the production of vehicles powered entirely by internal combustion engines in March 2022, BYD has been at the forefront of the industry’s shift to EVs.
Honestly in my opinion it is time to remove all tariffs on EVs under 25k and let anyone who wants to fill that slot in. American car manufacturers refuse to fill the market need.
If I were in the US, I would hold out for the Aptera.
I just bought a BYD for my parents here in İstanbul. Very satisfied with it so far.
I have a BYD Seal here in Australia. You yanks are missing out
I’ll take interest when their labor practices are closer to humane and further from indentured servitude.
I really want the Dolphin but I definitely am in no way near being able to afford it yet.
Oh yeah? Wheres your carrier battle group, bub?
You guys will protect us, we give you Pine Gap
We will protect Pine Gap 🙃
We miss out on so much from the rest of the world but we have so many pridefully ignorant people that will die on any hill that might improve our lives.
I’d personally love to have more than 0 weeks of government required paid time off, sick days, the top reason for bankruptcy not be medical bills, and no more mass shootings but I will most likely be dead before any of that happens.
Fun fact. The ten most “American-made” cars of 2023 are:
Tesla Model Y Tesla Model 3 Tesla Model X Tesla Model S Honda Passport Volkswagen ID.4 Honda Odyssey Acura MDX Honda Ridgeline Acura RDXHmmm, something seems to be missing… 🤔
Mercedes, Audi and BMW?
I’m sure they’re right around the corner, pretty close to the top 10.
Oh, you meant Ford, GM and Chryslerdaimlerfiatstellantis?
Yeah nah, as true patriots, they produce in other countries so Americans would pay for the cars, but not be paid to build them.
For better or worse, there are multiple ways of measuring “American Made”. An alternate measure, which probably matters more in this conversation, is “how many people that worked on <product> are American residents”. Here’s a study that tries to rank each model by how much it contributes to the US economy
The vast majority of the development (engineering, planning, purchasing/supply chain, quality, after sales, etc) effort for Honda and VW is overseas, along with most other non-domestic brands. This extends beyond their own employees to their tier 1s. Many OEMs use suppliers that are located geographically close to their development centers.
None of this excuses the domestic OEMs for their abandonment of cars, their endless march to higher and higher average transaction price, or their quality records.
What do you mean by putting Honda and VW in the list?
Oh wow! That goes back far, I had no idea. Thanks for enlightening!
all the custom cars?
Why did Ford dump all of the models that offered a variety of price points ?
Because they could afford to be profitable and not care about 90% of the US consumer body.
Same with GM and Dodge RAM. They quit making lots of cars to save money for themselves. And now the US has betrayed the US consumer again pushing a green agenda while maintaining OIL hegemony in vehicles for the masses.
Now we have fewer types of vehicles, lower inventory, higher prices, 10 year car loans, and restrictions on getting the green vehicles that we were encouraged to want. American Dream has become the American Delusion.
The funny thing is y’all in the US still have a better selection of vehicles available than we do in Europe, it’s just mostly not from American marques.
I recently got my hands on a USDM Subaru. It has more options than the EU spec one so I figured I’d look at the US Subaru website and yup, even for current model years, they have WAY more options available in terms of both models and trims. Y’all still get the WRX sedan, we only get the Impreza hatchback with a naturally aspirated engine. We don’t get the Ascent either.
You guys also get things like the Toyota 4-runner, Volkswagen Atlas, etc in terms of SUVs that are pretty big, but not gigantic.
It’s the same cycle we had from back in 2002, under the Bush Hummer tax cut. Government subsidized light trucks and made gasoline artificially cheap, so people went out and bought these enormous vehicles and dumped millions of gallons into them for power.
Then 2008 hits, gas prices go vertical, car loans go bust, and the Big 3 are out begging for bailouts. Obama delivers (while Mitt Romney signs his own death warrant in Michigan by telling Detroit to go bankrupt) and rides a popular wave of support for saving the American auto industry from itself. But he doesn’t bother to do any kind of regulation or curb the consumption of fossil fuels, because that would make soccer moms still driving their 10 ton vehicles sad.
Then the bubble pops in 2020 thanks to COVID and everyone runs into receivership again and we’ve got to flood the zone with taxpayer bailout money.
But that’s okay, because COVID actually gave us cheap gasoline again! So we get another era of cheap gasoline and big cars and a brand new automotive industry bubble.
Gee, I hope history doesn’t repeat itself.
:/ sorry bro
Yeah, as with most things in the US currently, prices are artificially inflated. They’re doing this because they’re trying to keep up the facade that ‘these are just the new prices cuz inflation’ when it’s painfully apparent that it’s not. They’re trying to pocket as much of our money as possible and they know if competition is introduced they’ll be forced to cut into those sweet sweet greedflation profits. I’m honestly never going to buy another US made vehicle if I can help it. My next vehicle will more than likely be foreign electric, and seeing this post just solidifies I’ve made the right decision.
Or, hear me out, they’re trying to stop the Chinese from taking over entire global industries by leveraging slave labor and impossible government incentives…?
You’re right, and they have a history of government sponsored corporate espionage and industry subsidies that support this.
However, this is an unpopular opinion on Lemmy. Ask me how I know…
And these Chinese vehicle prices are artificially deflated.
They’re trying to pocket as much of our money as possible and they know if competition is introduced they’ll be forced to cut into those sweet sweet greedflation profits.
I’m honestly never going to buy another US made vehicle if I can help it. My next vehicle will more than likely be foreign electric
I don’t really follow this line of logic. You state that companies here are artificially inflating their prices but then state that you’ll buy a foreign brand electric, which is going to be one of the exact same companies that you accuse of inflating prices. There are only a handful of US car makers, GM, Ford, and Tesla, and only 1 of those 3 put out EVs in any meaningful quantity.
And these Chinese vehicle prices are artificially deflated.
Deflated thanks to the buying power of the US dollar. That’s just more US economic policy rebounding on itself.
You state that companies here are artificially inflating their prices but then state that you’ll buy a foreign brand electric
Domestic automakers are running enormous administrative overhead, thanks to their focus on stock buybacks and investment in kitsch features like AI. That, plus the high cost of computer chips created by the AI/Metaverse/Crypto bubble which is, itself, feeding into buybacks and other corporate accounting tricks to boost executive and board compensation.
Chinese firms don’t have that baggage. So they don’t need to put enormous markups on their vehicles. The real cost to produce for a new car (especially a small one) is fairly low and you can still turn a big profit on volume if you can outcompete American automakers on price.
There are only a handful of US car makers
Thanks to decades of consolidation. But those car makers have millions of workers spread across dozens of factories. They command hundreds of billions of dollars in domestic capital. Its not like these are three smol beans fighting the Big Scary BYD. These are three of the wealthiest and most profitable businesses to ever exist on the planet.
And they can’t compete.
Deflated thanks to the buying power of the US dollar. That’s just more US economic policy rebounding on itself.
Deflated because China is subsidizing these vehicles directly as they’re state owned companies. What are you even talking about with the buying power of the US dollar?
Domestic automakers are running enormous administrative overhead, thanks to their focus on stock buybacks and investment in kitsch features like AI. That, plus the high cost of computer chips created by the AI/Metaverse/Crypto bubble which is, itself, feeding into buybacks and other corporate accounting tricks to boost executive and board compensation.
Really? Let’s see some names and numbers. How much did Hyundai invest in the Metaverse and crypto. How much have they spent on stock buybacks? What about Toyota, VW, BMW, GM, Tesla, Honda, and MINI. What percentage of their overhead accounts for these investments exactly? This reads like incoherent ramblings of all the things you don’t like in the world but focused at car companies.
The real cost to produce for a new car (especially a small one) is fairly low and you can still turn a big profit on volume if you can outcompete American automakers on price.
So what’s the exact cost to produce a new car?
Thanks to decades of consolidation
Uh, what? Are you referring to the decades of 1900-1910? GM has owned their subsidiary brands for over 100 years along with Ford and Tesla is a relatively new company. What consolidation?
They command hundreds of billions of dollars in domestic capital. Its not like these are three smol beans fighting the Big Scary BYD. These are three of the wealthiest and most profitable businesses to ever exist on the planet.
And China commands hundreds of trillions of dollars, which is who automakers are really competing against.
Three of the wealthiest and most profitable businesses to ever exist on the planet? This is legitimately hilarious and so false. GM was bankrupt 15 years ago. Ford has had to survive on government loans which it wasn’t able to pay back until recently and both have a market cap of ~$50B. Tesla is an outlier as they’re valued extremely high for their financial situation and what they’ve produced thus far and most people agree that they’re a bubble waiting to burst. By what metric are they the most profitable and wealthiest?
Also, aside from all this ignorance, what’s your justification for the bulk of the US auto market, made up of foreign companies, selling their cars for the same prices as these three domestic companies?
Deflated because China is subsidizing these vehicles
What do you think those $7k US tax credits for new EVs constitute?
A subsidy that applies to everyone in the market, not just the “home team.” That’s the difference between subsidies to entice consumers to buy EVs and subsidies to put your competitors out of business to the detriment of everyone but you.
like how the cost of gas is artificially deflated in the USA ?
Yes.
From your tone, it sounds like you think that’s a bad thing, yet it also seems like you’re arguing for more of the same from China.
The major difference is China is subsidizing green technologies that are good for curbing climate change and the USA is subsidizing harmful shit that’s killing us all
Give me a break. China has some of the most lax environmental regulations on the planet which is why all the nastiest shit on the planet is produced there. To pretend like they’re some bastion of environmental protection is laughable.
Yes, they are subsidizing green technology but this isn’t for the benefit of the people, it’s for the benefit of the government as they want the rest of the world to be reliant on them alone. About a decade ago they did this same exact thing with photovoltaics and put a ton of solar manufacturers out of business because nobody could compete with a pocketbook the size of the Chinese government’s.
In China, abandoned EVs are piling up all over the place. Can you point out what about this is good for the environment when EVs only begin to offset the pollution created from their production after they’ve been driven around for a few years?
https://www.bloomberg.com/features/2023-china-ev-graveyards/
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_carbon_dioxide_emissions_per_capita
https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/co-emissions-per-capita
Does your gut have any published studies?
They’re also building 95% of the world’s new coal plants: https://www.carbonbrief.org/china-responsible-for-95-of-new-coal-power-construction-in-2023-report-says/
New coal construction has basically stopped everywhere else, including the US.
“Per capita” is also doing some heavy lifting. Nature doesn’t care about per capita. It cares about overall output, and China’s is enormous. They’d need to produce over four times less co2 on a per capita basis to be equivalent to US output. They’re closer to two times.
What is it you’re not understanding? Honest question, no sarcasm. I’m stating I won’t buy a US vehicle, and my next will most likely be a foreign electric. Did I state something false because US manufacturers aren’t meeting a threshold of electric vehicles produced? Market is shifting to electric, which means even if they aren’t now, they’ll probably lean into electric in the coming years. Again though, no relation to either of the statements I made.
Because all those foreign manufacturers are already selling their vehicles here and for comparable prices to the tiny share of remaining US companies that still exist (GM, Ford, Tesla). If you think these high prices are just US companies being greedy, then how do you explain VW, Hyundai, Kia, Toyota, etc selling their cars for the same price?
In reality it’s all about the battery manufacture. It’s the most expensive component and BYD is vertically integrated (they even mine their own lithium, they are a huge battery manufacturer in their own right and sell cells to other companies to make cars) and has done extensive research on making it cheap with their BYD blade. Nobody can afford to compete with them, but it’s not because they’re getting subsidies. It’s because they’re a company that’s built completely different when you compare it to buying batteries from third parties.
The cry foul that people make is no company would’ve survived in building that sort of initial vertical integration without the government propping them up. That’s right, but I don’t see the US trying to develop an industry that even compares.
This is obviously false as Tesla has their own battery factories and still can’t sell that cheap, Korea has Samsung and LG manufacturing batteries on a comparable scale and Hyundai/Kia can’t sell that cheap, Japan has (partnered with Tesla) Panasonic and can’t sell that cheap. China is heavily subsidizing these vehicles. You can’t sell an equivalent car for less than half the competition, tens of thousands of dollars cheaper, just because you happen to be vertically integrated in manufacturing a big part of the car.
How do I buy one?
American (and european) car makers can’t fill that market need due to higher labour costs and stricter environmental laws.
Also the fact that the chinese government heavily subsidizes electric auto makers skews the market in favour of the chinese manufacturers.
They also make better cars. That also helps.
For example Volkswagen has no EV that even comes close to a BYD in terms of quality.
It’s the Walmart business model. Move into a new area and undercut your competitors just long enough to put them out of business. Once this happens you have the market over a barrel and can charge however much you like.
I seriously don’t understand how people keep falling for this rhetoric and claiming this is all about protecting US companies when there are only 3 US companies left and they barely makeup 1/3 of the US auto market.
undercut your competitors
Or just buy them out and close the doors.
At some point though the benefit of moving away from fossil fuels infrastructure outweighs the labor and strategic protection afforded by tariffs. IMO we are at that point- if we keep on doing what we’re doing for another 30-50 years union jobs probably won’t matter when vast parts of the world become uninhabitable
America owns the fossil fuel industry. That is what all those “invade countries to steal their oil” memes are about.
Those environmental benefits are lost when they’re built in a country with some of the most lax environmental laws in the world and then shipped halfway across the planet.
They also seem to be of questionable quality as in China, they have abandoned EVs piling up all over the place. There’s nothing good for the environment here.
https://www.bloomberg.com/features/2023-china-ev-graveyards/
then Incentivize EV reuse as home scale batteries
This is a good use for the old battery packs but it’s not like you can just park the derelict car in your garage to power your home.
These packs will need to be processed and then resold as battery storage banks. This also ignores all the pollution created from producing these cars in the first place along with the pollution created from recycling the car only for them to be treated like disposable junk and tossed into the garbage after a couple years.
Tariffs + subsidies of our own + improvements of public transit/city planning
Buying chinese electric cars ain’t gonna help the environment.
I wouldn’t buy such cars if I’d know they were X% made with human suffering.
Yeah I’m fine with just taking a train that will last way longer and is staffed by my local citizens who are being paid for their labor and effort and rent a well made car made from a respectful compamy or buy it if I need it long term.
But I guess I might just be a conservative socialist cause I don’t think mass produced with slave labor, with stolen raw materials still from Africa, millions of individual electric vehicles is still any form of solution for anything least of all climate change.
But sure let’s praise china for doing the uber model of electric cars.
it is time to remove all tariffs on EVs under 25k and let anyone who wants to fill that slot in.
How to force other car makers to build more reasonable EVs at more reasonable prices is an important question. But the answer isn’t “Uyghur labor camps”.
Okay fair point. What about regular old prison labour?
Not a thing where I live, so I didn’t even consider that.
You mean prison slavery? That’s the US, get on it lol
Hey I’m not discriminating, I think US and China compete very well on prison populations.
Not really, and you can thank every president after and including Nixon for that. Specially Nixon and Reagan though.
How reliable do you think those numbers are?
Reliable enough for Wikipedia, it seems.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_United_States_incarceration_rate_with_other_countries
China is unfairly competing because US auto companies pay billions for share buybacks while Chinese companies don’t.
Also potential slave labour
As much as I want cheap EVs I trust china about as far as I can throw the country with access to all the data the could get from cars in this country.
They make almost everything you use. They have massive access already. Most of your current car electronics are made there.
So tired of this nonsense argument. Most electronics are engineered locally, the designs are sent overseas, the hardware is built to local specifications, and it runs locally-written software.
That is entirely different from electronics that are engineered and manufactured in China and run Chinese software, all under the close eye of the CCP.
Much easier to backdoor data when you make the entire system including the software.
then maybe the us should blanket ban closed source/ binary blob automotive software
Who do u think makes most of the electronics for vehicles currently?
Components != Complete system including software
Things are so tiny nowadays, you could probably cram a tiny processor w/ ram, and 5g modem into something the size of one of those cylindrical capacitors. Of course getting by the scrutiny of US engineers receiving a product with that would be a little harder.
Practical speculative paranoia / Tinfoil time:
Imagine millions of Chinese EV’s on the road.
Know that governments can remotely kill people with the tiny payload of a standard pager.
Imagine all the cars executing payload.
(Eg all stopping in traffic. A thousand kilos of lithium explosives in every one.)
When an American car is sold in China the software is replaced with their own. No reason to use their software here
Tariffs are a punishment for consumers looking for affordable products, designed to help government officials and their megacorp buddies avoid competition.
Tariffs were literally lobbied for and implemented by Unions back in anno tobak
Tariffs would be good if the 1% wasn’t stealing all the wealth imo.
The counterpoints are about local US employment and thinking comparative advantage is bullshit.
They’re talking about making Chinese drones, including hobby drones, illegal. I’d be amazed if they did that while letting a compute node on wheels drive 15k miles yearly in America gathering data and phoning home.
Why are we ok with domestic manufacturers doing this though
Well, I agree with you, but china is a military threat to the US and its allies. Look at what happened in Lebanon today. The CCP would definitely use commodity technology to assassinate people.
You would be the first person I’ve heard blaming China for the pager attack.
Dude, you’re missing the context completely. It’s an analogy.
Yet the only example is of a western ally pulling that shit.
But China is not any more or less likely than any other country to do this type of thing; it really seems like you’re associating them with that terrorist attack for no particular reason other than to take advantage of people’s imagination.
I don’t even know why you’d jump to tie those two things together.
US cars wouldn’t cost so much if the corporations would stop overloading the cars with features I don’t want. Here’s what I need: Car to go Car to charge
Here’s what I want: Radio AC/heat Electric windows
The wants are not even requirements.
They don’t even makes cars anymore…
I really want an OPEC (one person electric car)
Backup cameras are required by law for safety reasons. Same with ABS, seatbelts, airbags etc, but a LOT of things can be ripped out.
Heat/AC are really required as well in most places.
I’d be happy if an Android or iPhone was a REQUIREMENT. It’d run the car as an app, be a nav system, entertainment and everything, plus keep the cost down even further.
Crank window (note only one!) on the ONE door with an emergency push out window on the other side. Speakers? No. A mono, Bluetooth connected one in the headrest is plenty.
It would need to be able to cruise at 70mph, but all the other little changes would mean huge weight savings and a single person “bubble shape” would be real aerodynamic. A standard 120v plug would be all that would be even offered. Keeps coat and weight down.
Nah, I don’t need google updates being a critical component of my transportation. Mobile phone as an OPTIONAL ceter console, sure, but the vehicle must still work without it.
The closest I can get is a Renault Twizy!
A Bluetooth speaker set would be nice too. That’s not very expensive. Nor is the tablet in the dashboard. You could get both for less than a thousand dollars.
The features really aren’t the problem. They just refuse to stop price gouging.
