Taking away someone’s intentional, roleplayed disability definitely falls under “infringing on someone’s fun”, though. If the player (not just the character) is also disabled and trying to represent themselves in the game, this goes beyond infringing on fun straight into lowkey offensive. I would never let this nat 20 work. Maybe it fixes the wheelchair or something.
Main issue is the wheelchair itself. No adventurer would ever use a wheelchair, the only reason we can use wheelchairs now are uniform roads and ada mandated ramps. Magic carpets exist and are cheap in game and don’t make you a liability.
I mean, have you considered a dwarven wheelchair made from the shields of the fallen, using their frames for wheels that grant comparable protection while gaining grip compared with a wooden spoke?
Or a druidic wheelchair of entire roots that bonded to the druid when they were mortally wounded on the forest, bonding them permanently?
Or a warlock who walks with an artificial leg of miasma and lurching tentacles that his patron restored him to in exchange for his soul debt?
Literally no reason and no way a wheelchair in game is more a liability than some geriatric old fucking wozard breaking his hip or your characters having a concussion and needing an EMT.
If I cast “Greater Restoration” and say I’m going to cure your of your Warlock pact, and roll a nat 20, and you are vehemently against this, it’s not “for the sake of fun” if I go ahead and “cure” you of your chosen character traits and path.
I hear you, and I’m not rigid in spell use within reason, but this is well outside just RAW and more into the latter part of everyone having fun at the table. Your fun shouldn’t come at the expense of another player having to give up agency over their character, which are personal avatars people can sometimes be quite attached to.
If you’re in a table where characters are dying left and right maybe they aren’t. But even then, if they don’t want it, that’s the red line. Just like using Mind Control on a party member to do something unspeakable. RAW could they? Sure. But unless this is a game built on betrayals or where players are expecting a PvP element, absolutely not. Because the IRL consequences of this and the real anger a player at the table may feel trump mechanics.
Everything in moderation, everything on balance. Player agency is something you should try not to let other players trample on. And even as a DM, it should be subtle or not at all when you are moving the scenery to guide something. Again, subjective.
Why do people think this? Like, I’m not mad at you, just amazed at how common this belief is.
Wheelchairs were around, and in use on surfaces that were abysmal in comparison to modern ones, but they worked.
Whether or not an adventurer would use one is a different issue, but folks really don’t know shit about wheelchairs it seems.
I’m not saying it would be fun, or easy, but I’ve been out in the woods on paths barely wide enough to fit a chair, and had people, my patients, push themselves the entire way, lumps, ruts, rocks, roots and all. And rubber tires aren’t magic for that. They help, but they don’t make the impossible possible, just the edge cases easier.
… the only reason we can use wheelchairs now are uniform roads and ada mandated ramps.
That is not about the fantasy world, unless ada means All Drow Associated or something, though why drow would mandate ramps, I have no idea. Maybe because spiders don’t like steps?
So your fantasy world has asphalt roads and uniform sidewalks and paved connections between every village? If your 99.9% of dnd games you are playing in the mideaval era world with magic. So just use the fucking magic items.
I described plenty of magically enhanced wheelchair options alin a different comment, and then the complaint was that they’re still wheelchairs.
It feels like people just don’t think disabled people can or should exist in a fantasy realm, and that’s kind of hilarious considering how many famous characters in fiction have prosthetics or other aids.
Professor X does okay for himself.
“But why doesn’t he just levitate all the time!”
Because he’s fine seated and there’s no issue with it.
You do know that like, wagons and shit existed for millenia and went over completely unpaved and incredibly rough terrain as well, right? Any wheelchair in a DnD setting could easily have a mild enchanment for grip and strength enhancement that would make it offroad capable.
I have had players make persuasion checks against me before when they want to do something that’s explicitly outside the rules but I think it would be cool. Depending on how cool I think it would be, the DC can be anywhere from 10 to 20, and the player doesn’t have proficiency
the GM can make players do things they don’t want, if players disagree it is at best a contested check but in almost all cases the controlling player controls their own character
Yes, but in table top unless you signed up for a PvP game, other players don’t get to dictate how your character is. And even the DM shouldn’t railroad.
D&D is ultimately a set of rules to guide a group improv storytelling session. One of the first rules of improv is “yes and” so you go with it within the confines of the game rules as well as what people are comfortable with. This is where /u/[email protected]’s suggestion of “Ranlar slowly rises from his wheelchair before collapsing under his own weight as his atrophied legs give out. Your party must now find a way to move him away from the orcs without using his newly healed legs, perhaps on a nearby chair with wheels.” Fits so well. It "yes and"s the spell while remaining true to the other player’s wishes.
The DMs job is to maintain the fun for the players, and if one player is ruining others fun they need to be spoken with and kicked out if they aren’t able to be a team player. Personally, I treat a NAT20 (and critical failures) as an opportunity to do something comical that helps advance the story and improve the lore, because that creates the moments you tell to others when sharing fun stories about D&D
A 20 does not mean the spell achieves something out of its capabilities, what is this five year olds playing DnD?
Honestly, as a DM, when this doesn’t infringe on other player’s fun like here I don’t mind doing extraordinary stuff for the Nat 20
Taking away someone’s intentional, roleplayed disability definitely falls under “infringing on someone’s fun”, though. If the player (not just the character) is also disabled and trying to represent themselves in the game, this goes beyond infringing on fun straight into lowkey offensive. I would never let this nat 20 work. Maybe it fixes the wheelchair or something.
Main issue is the wheelchair itself. No adventurer would ever use a wheelchair, the only reason we can use wheelchairs now are uniform roads and ada mandated ramps. Magic carpets exist and are cheap in game and don’t make you a liability.
I mean, have you considered a dwarven wheelchair made from the shields of the fallen, using their frames for wheels that grant comparable protection while gaining grip compared with a wooden spoke?
Or a druidic wheelchair of entire roots that bonded to the druid when they were mortally wounded on the forest, bonding them permanently?
Or a warlock who walks with an artificial leg of miasma and lurching tentacles that his patron restored him to in exchange for his soul debt?
Literally no reason and no way a wheelchair in game is more a liability than some geriatric old fucking wozard breaking his hip or your characters having a concussion and needing an EMT.
Though better than the alternative it would still be terrible on any uphill.
Roots bonding to the lower body would not form a wheelchair, more like darth maul spider legs.
That’s a leg, not a wheelchair.
In every scenario, using any magic would circumvent the disability in a way that ends up mimicking walking while not being a liability.
Yes.
That is wheelchairs and prosthetics do my friend.
I find it odd that there is tons of room to make a wheel chair work in the game but not the spell.
It’s a shared adventure, I’d let lots of things fly for the sake of fun and interest.
If I cast “Greater Restoration” and say I’m going to cure your of your Warlock pact, and roll a nat 20, and you are vehemently against this, it’s not “for the sake of fun” if I go ahead and “cure” you of your chosen character traits and path.
I hear you, and I’m not rigid in spell use within reason, but this is well outside just RAW and more into the latter part of everyone having fun at the table. Your fun shouldn’t come at the expense of another player having to give up agency over their character, which are personal avatars people can sometimes be quite attached to.
If you’re in a table where characters are dying left and right maybe they aren’t. But even then, if they don’t want it, that’s the red line. Just like using Mind Control on a party member to do something unspeakable. RAW could they? Sure. But unless this is a game built on betrayals or where players are expecting a PvP element, absolutely not. Because the IRL consequences of this and the real anger a player at the table may feel trump mechanics.
Everything in moderation, everything on balance. Player agency is something you should try not to let other players trample on. And even as a DM, it should be subtle or not at all when you are moving the scenery to guide something. Again, subjective.
Why do people think this? Like, I’m not mad at you, just amazed at how common this belief is.
Wheelchairs were around, and in use on surfaces that were abysmal in comparison to modern ones, but they worked.
Whether or not an adventurer would use one is a different issue, but folks really don’t know shit about wheelchairs it seems.
I’m not saying it would be fun, or easy, but I’ve been out in the woods on paths barely wide enough to fit a chair, and had people, my patients, push themselves the entire way, lumps, ruts, rocks, roots and all. And rubber tires aren’t magic for that. They help, but they don’t make the impossible possible, just the edge cases easier.
Because this is a FANTASY WORLD with MAGIC and BETTER ALTERNATIVES.
Quoting you
That is not about the fantasy world, unless ada means All Drow Associated or something, though why drow would mandate ramps, I have no idea. Maybe because spiders don’t like steps?
So your fantasy world has asphalt roads and uniform sidewalks and paved connections between every village? If your 99.9% of dnd games you are playing in the mideaval era world with magic. So just use the fucking magic items.
Dude.
What is your malfunction?
You’re still saying the same thing, and ignoring the fact that you’re wrong about wheelchairs needing paved roads and sidewalks at all.
Are you trolling me, or just that unwilling to stop and read and think?
I’m not talking about d&d or fantasy worlds, I’m talking about the claims you’ve made about how wheelchairs work in our world, the real world.
I described plenty of magically enhanced wheelchair options alin a different comment, and then the complaint was that they’re still wheelchairs.
It feels like people just don’t think disabled people can or should exist in a fantasy realm, and that’s kind of hilarious considering how many famous characters in fiction have prosthetics or other aids.
Professor X does okay for himself. “But why doesn’t he just levitate all the time!” Because he’s fine seated and there’s no issue with it.
You do know that like, wagons and shit existed for millenia and went over completely unpaved and incredibly rough terrain as well, right? Any wheelchair in a DnD setting could easily have a mild enchanment for grip and strength enhancement that would make it offroad capable.
How do you know he doesn’t put it on a floating disk?
Then it is no longer a wheelchair, it’s a magical floating chair which is acceptable.
The wheels don’t just vanish lol
I believe they were saying that this is a situation where it does infringe on other player’s fun
If I’m DM I’d say they cast the spell exceptionally well and… it does nothing. They can do something very well that doesn’t do anything special.
I have had players make persuasion checks against me before when they want to do something that’s explicitly outside the rules but I think it would be cool. Depending on how cool I think it would be, the DC can be anywhere from 10 to 20, and the player doesn’t have proficiency
That’s another good idea ! I want to create an environment that incentivizes player creativity soo this could be fun :)
nor can you make another player do something they don’t want
What gave you that idea? Games make other players do stuff they don’t want all the time.
the GM can make players do things they don’t want, if players disagree it is at best a contested check but in almost all cases the controlling player controls their own character
Yes, but in table top unless you signed up for a PvP game, other players don’t get to dictate how your character is. And even the DM shouldn’t railroad.
The rules and scenarios do that all the time lol
D&D is ultimately a set of rules to guide a group improv storytelling session. One of the first rules of improv is “yes and” so you go with it within the confines of the game rules as well as what people are comfortable with. This is where /u/[email protected]’s suggestion of “Ranlar slowly rises from his wheelchair before collapsing under his own weight as his atrophied legs give out. Your party must now find a way to move him away from the orcs without using his newly healed legs, perhaps on a nearby chair with wheels.” Fits so well. It "yes and"s the spell while remaining true to the other player’s wishes.
The DMs job is to maintain the fun for the players, and if one player is ruining others fun they need to be spoken with and kicked out if they aren’t able to be a team player. Personally, I treat a NAT20 (and critical failures) as an opportunity to do something comical that helps advance the story and improve the lore, because that creates the moments you tell to others when sharing fun stories about D&D