wtf are you on about, you’re obviously making stuff up
And that’s not a personal attack, that’s an attack on the argument. If someone is spouting complete nonsense, point out how a handful of their arguments are nonsense, and then argue that this person is consistently spouting nonsense. Then it’s on them to defend the ones you pointed out, or at least show that those are outliers (defend their other arguments), and if they instead resort to personal attacks, you use that as further evidence that their arguments don’t have substance.
What I’m against is stuff like, “Trump is a fascist” with no actual evidence of support for fascism. Discredit him because of what he’s said and done (there’s plenty of material there), not because of party affiliation or the way he talks.
This should go for all public discourse. I honestly don’t care about Trump or Harris, and they’ll be gone one way or another after several years. What I do care about is the longer-term direction of organized groups, and that is based on arguments, not people.
that’s not a personal attack, that’s an attack on the argument
No you misunderstood me. That bit you quoted wasn’t your argument against your opponent. It’s a response that someone might make to your personal attacks, if those attacks are not well-grounded. Calling Trump a sex pest is a personal attacks, but well-grounded in his actual behaviour. Calling Tim Walz a sex pest would not be well-grounded, to my knowledge.
As for the F word…fascist shouldn’t be used as a mere insult, but using it where it’s applicable is important. It’s about predicting the kinds of behaviours you might expect from one person in the future based on the similarity of their current behaviours to other historical groups with a similar ideology. People should be concerned about Trump and the MAGA movement within the Republicans not “because they’re fascists”, but because the rhetoric they use is fascistic and it, along with some of their actual actions and policies, are eerily reminiscent of historical fascist movements. This is a criticism deeply rooted in ideas and as such isn’t really relevant in this discussion.
Calling Trump a sex pest is a personal attacks, but well-grounded in his actual behaviour
I disagree, it’s inflammatory, based on some sketchy evidence, and has absolutely nothing to do with his ability to govern. So there’s absolutely no reason to make that argument.
People should be concerned about Trump and the MAGA movement
Oh, I absolutely agree people should be worried, but if they’re going to call them fascist, they need some really compelling evidence. And in almost every case, that evidence just doesn’t exist. The stronger the accusation, the stronger your evidence needs to be.
I don’t call them fascist because I don’t have the evidence for that, even assuming Jan 6 was intentionally sparked by former Pres. Trump. The furthest I’ll go is to say he’s anti-democratic (he attacked the election with zero success) and that his policies would be harmful (high tariffs cause inflation, unfunded tax cuts cause inflation, etc). I then speculate about possible motivations (Trump is a narcissist, wants to benefit himself and other rich people, etc), and indicate that the average person will be worse off because of his policies. If you attack the person directly, you’ll put them on the defensive (you’re being unfair, or whatever). If you attack the policies and demonstrate that they help some group the listener/reader doesn’t like (say, billionaires) at their expense, you might convince them to consider alternatives.
If you believe his presidency would push us toward fascism, show the evidence. And then indicate what your preferred alternative (I assume Harris?) would do differently. If you can communicate that succinctly and in simple words, you could actually change peoples’ opinions. If you come off as calling names (i.e. sex pest fascist), you’ll just put people on the defensive. Don’t attack the individual, attack the ideas that individual espouses, and show how those ideas will benefit others you don’t like at your expense.
And that’s not a personal attack, that’s an attack on the argument. If someone is spouting complete nonsense, point out how a handful of their arguments are nonsense, and then argue that this person is consistently spouting nonsense. Then it’s on them to defend the ones you pointed out, or at least show that those are outliers (defend their other arguments), and if they instead resort to personal attacks, you use that as further evidence that their arguments don’t have substance.
What I’m against is stuff like, “Trump is a fascist” with no actual evidence of support for fascism. Discredit him because of what he’s said and done (there’s plenty of material there), not because of party affiliation or the way he talks.
This should go for all public discourse. I honestly don’t care about Trump or Harris, and they’ll be gone one way or another after several years. What I do care about is the longer-term direction of organized groups, and that is based on arguments, not people.
No you misunderstood me. That bit you quoted wasn’t your argument against your opponent. It’s a response that someone might make to your personal attacks, if those attacks are not well-grounded. Calling Trump a sex pest is a personal attacks, but well-grounded in his actual behaviour. Calling Tim Walz a sex pest would not be well-grounded, to my knowledge.
As for the F word…fascist shouldn’t be used as a mere insult, but using it where it’s applicable is important. It’s about predicting the kinds of behaviours you might expect from one person in the future based on the similarity of their current behaviours to other historical groups with a similar ideology. People should be concerned about Trump and the MAGA movement within the Republicans not “because they’re fascists”, but because the rhetoric they use is fascistic and it, along with some of their actual actions and policies, are eerily reminiscent of historical fascist movements. This is a criticism deeply rooted in ideas and as such isn’t really relevant in this discussion.
I disagree, it’s inflammatory, based on some sketchy evidence, and has absolutely nothing to do with his ability to govern. So there’s absolutely no reason to make that argument.
Oh, I absolutely agree people should be worried, but if they’re going to call them fascist, they need some really compelling evidence. And in almost every case, that evidence just doesn’t exist. The stronger the accusation, the stronger your evidence needs to be.
I don’t call them fascist because I don’t have the evidence for that, even assuming Jan 6 was intentionally sparked by former Pres. Trump. The furthest I’ll go is to say he’s anti-democratic (he attacked the election with zero success) and that his policies would be harmful (high tariffs cause inflation, unfunded tax cuts cause inflation, etc). I then speculate about possible motivations (Trump is a narcissist, wants to benefit himself and other rich people, etc), and indicate that the average person will be worse off because of his policies. If you attack the person directly, you’ll put them on the defensive (you’re being unfair, or whatever). If you attack the policies and demonstrate that they help some group the listener/reader doesn’t like (say, billionaires) at their expense, you might convince them to consider alternatives.
If you believe his presidency would push us toward fascism, show the evidence. And then indicate what your preferred alternative (I assume Harris?) would do differently. If you can communicate that succinctly and in simple words, you could actually change peoples’ opinions. If you come off as calling names (i.e. sex pest fascist), you’ll just put people on the defensive. Don’t attack the individual, attack the ideas that individual espouses, and show how those ideas will benefit others you don’t like at your expense.