This is similar reasoning to how it’s always been obvious to me that the “being gay is a choice” argument bigots make is complete bullshit. If it were a choice, who the fuck would willingly submit themselves to all that discrimination and suffering?!
Well, all those Christians that are the victims of society for one. Them choosing the “difficult path of faith” explains at least part of the reason for why they are so unempathetic.
Them choosing the “difficult path of faith” explains at least part of the reason for why they are so unempathetic.
And why there are so many closeted homosexuals in their ranks.
It’s easy to believe sexuality is a choice when you’re constantly fighting your “deviant” urges.
New finishing move unlocked: respond to haters with “being in the closet is a choice”
Religious people have been tortured horribly and killed for their religion while refusing to recant their beliefs, and religion is very much a choice. I’m not saying you’re wrong, just that this argument isn’t great.
But the belief in religion like Christianity comes with an afterlife. If you truly believe that there is a heaven and hell, torture is not going to make you drop those beliefs. On the flip side, if being gay was a choice, all you’re choosing is strife and being gay.
I think it’s a perfectly fine argument.
I doubt that a potential future reward is going to allow a person to hold up under torture in the now. I think some Christians probably refuse to recant under torture because their sense of self is rooted in their religion, rather than because they expect a reward. Of course, paradise is part of those religious beliefs, so it’s hard to tell.
I think it’s less of a reward, more of a fear. How can I turn my back on god and risk eternal damnation? That’s a powerful thing right there. But true, it is also a massive part of some people’s identity.
When I deconverted, I found it to be really hard to get past the fear. The thing that finally did it for me was the idea that a truly benevolent God wouldn’t have an issue with inquiry, and a malevolent God wasn’t one I wanted to follow. Fear is definitely a factor that keeps people in the church.
That’s true, to a degree, but it isn’t instinctual. You don’t have people staring into the mirror in the middle of the night trying to figure out why they feel Christian when they’ve never even seen a bible before.
The big “naturalist” angle on gay/trans issues I see is that there are plenty of bi/fluid people who could choose to lean one way or another exclusively. They kinda get erased simply because they don’t have this deep instinctual impulse towards the taboo end of the spectrum.
Many religious people do argue that there is an instinct toward religious belief - the “God shaped hole”, if you’ve heard the expression. There are stories of people feeling an intense sense that there must be some higher power, or something more than their daily life, although obviously they won’t fixate on Christianity without prior exposure.
Many religious people do argue that there is an instinct toward religious belief - the “God shaped hole”, if you’ve heard the expression
I’ve heard this argument for a certain kind of spirituality. And that’s one reason I’m loath to hate on people for being “religious” in the abstract or to dump on “belief in god” as this singular root of moral failing. Just feels like you’re going after people for being neurodivergent.
obviously they won’t fixate on Christianity without prior exposure
Right. Shy of the grand standing bullshitters and would-be prophets, I suppose.
There was a time when I thought that the arrival of easy global communication and information would lead to the decline of religion, but I don’t anymore. Christianity may have declined to some extent, but a lot of the people leaving the church(s) have just replaced it with vague spirituality, homebrew beliefs, or other looser faiths.
These days I’m much more inclined to take seriously the idea that supernatural belief is instinctual. Materialist atheism will, unfortunately, probably remain a fringe belief.
There was a time when I thought that the arrival of easy global communication and information would lead to the decline of religion, but I don’t anymore.
I’d argue the biggest harm to organized religion has been the mass migration caused by the globalization of trade. People move too frequently and travel too far to reliably find communities that share their views.
Christianity may have declined to some extent, but a lot of the people leaving the church(s) have just replaced it with vague spirituality, homebrew beliefs, or other looser faiths.
Sure. People are sinking to a lower common denominator of generic mysticism and superstition. But that doesn’t preclude materialism, humanism, or rationality. It’s a spirituality of the gaps. When you don’t have good data, you go with what you have. And that often boils down to rumor and gut-feeling.
These days I’m much more inclined to take seriously the idea that supernatural belief is instinctual. Materialist atheism will, unfortunately, probably remain a fringe belief.
Even the most staunch materialist atheists fall back on habits and heuristics and hearsay when that’s all they’ve got to work with. I wouldn’t call that instinctual so much as the rationality of last resort.
If it were a choice, who the fuck would willingly submit themselves to all that discrimination and suffering?!
That’s where you really start falling down the rabbit hole and swallowing the “Being gay is a way to worship Satan” and “Homosexuality is a mind-virus created by the Communists to prevent the fittest western males from procreating” blackpills.
“Homosexuality is a mind-virus created by the Communists to prevent the fittest western males from procreating” blackpills.
I’m just a random straight guy so I guess I’m not up to date on all the latest homophobic bullshit, but LOLWUT?
Given that anyone saying that is implying they think gay guys are the hottest guys, to me it sounds like more of a self-report than anything else.
implying they think gay guys are the hottest guys
You don’t have to be gay to recognize gay-me. Gay dudes are regularly the fittest, smoothest, most well dressed kids on the block.
Reminds me of gyms. Constantly lauded by the bigoted type but exist to make men burly and sexy and sweaty. lmao
Homosexuality is a mind-virus created by the Communists to prevent the fittest western males from procreating
This is a lie by a homophobe and yet goes way harder than anything I’ve ever heard a gay person say
“How should I know? I’m not gay. Maybe they just love Satan or something.”
There are plenty of solid arguments about homosexuality not being a choice. This isn’t one.
My sister’s take has been that since trans women don’t go through the pain of menstruation or giving birth, they have no right to suggest they “earned” being a woman.
I mean that and she thinks Disney became woke and they ruined her beloved 90s films. I remember talking about Putin and how he said the most Bond villain thing with “you in the west believe history is a struggle between oppression and freedom, I see it as a struggle between chaos and order”. Her take is history is a struggle between modesty and debauchery and we’ve gone too far in the debauchery direction.
I love her, and she can surprise me with her humor, but overall she can turn into Angela from the office, but she’s not even religious.
“earning” to be a woman sounds like the female equivalent to toxic masculinity
Terfs are the equivalent to toxic masculinity ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
True that, I never thought of it that way
Toxicity is Gender Neutral 🙌
I really like this take but would argue that toxic masculinity and femininity affect society in different ways. Hmm. Toxic gender ideology maybe?
For sure. There are many kinds of toxicity. Toxic gasses may affect you differently than inhaling silica dust, biological neurotoxins or rigid gender norms.
What are their thoughts on post op trans women? Because let me tell you, screaming pain in the hospital, pouring blood out my snatch (seriously it was so much), wearing pads every day, intense cramping from the catheter, abdominal pain for months, getting the stirrups and speculum treatment, I sure feel like I’d have ‘earned’ it by now
When my wife was newly transitioned, we were out in a big box store and she remarks, exasperated, “everyone is just stopping in my way or way invading my personal space today! Wtf!”
Nope, thats just how people treat women in public lol.
You never needed to earn being yourself via suffering, no one owes that to anyone, but I have witnessed personally just how authentically the public mistreats all femme people.
I came out in between jobs but the level of respect and my assumed competence changed dramatically. My favorite was always me suggesting a solution, I get deer in headlights stares, a guy suggests the same thing and suddenly it’s all the rage. Thankfully this never really happens in my current job but the sexism is for real in a lot of ways I didn’t understand until transitioning
Or cis women who just don’t get painful periods? Or those who decide to get rid of periods altogether with medication?
I feel like if someone wants to be a gender without surgery that’s a totally valid choice. I don’t get the expectations around having the “right” genitals. Who decides what’s right? It’s trying too hard to conform to an understanding of gender identity that’s now archaic.
I agree completely, surgery is definitely not a requirement especially with how inaccessible it is for so many people. That logic doesn’t seem to fly for the sister in question though so maybe an appeal to ‘yeah but some trans people have earned it according to you’ could get a foot in the door
Not to mention the months of being stabbed in the genitals and taint with electrified needles just to get ready for the surgery and recovery.
I had to do that for over two years 😭
I am so not looking forward to this part
My doc got me some serious topical shit from a compounding pharmacy : 30% benzocaine, 6% lidocaine, 6% tetracaine. Gotta put it on at scale and rub it in really thoroughly (use an exam glove for this so your fingers don’t go numb), and cover it with plastic wrap. Do that an hour to 90 minutes before the appointment, and have a gummy on the way in.
That made it survivable for me, still not fun tho.
My sister’s take has been that since trans women don’t go through the pain of menstruation or giving birth, they have no right to suggest they “earned” being a woman.
What a bullshit pov since many people born as women don’t have children or menstruate, see this link
Some intersex people don’t menstruate, what are intersex people? They can choose to express gender identity as they see fit. Therefore, it’s not black/white about “menstruate = woman”
Her take is history is a struggle between modesty and debauchery and we’ve gone too far in the debauchery direction.
Fascists always prattle about “degenerates.”
Also, ‘debauchery’, in this case just means more people are happier being themselves, and loving who they want to love, more than almost anytime in history.
These kind of people ignore all the regular kind of debauchery, like priests committing sexual abuse against children.
Or blame one on the other.
I doubt women willingly “earned” their womanhood going through all that, and whose to say I’d rather not deal with periods and stuff over literally not being able to be myself in my own skin? Making friends is so difficult when half my mind is recognizing that they’re gonna see the stubble no matter what I do and form opinions and assumptions on that alone.
This is how I think about trans men. I’m a cis man, but I never liked men very much, I’ve just never thought of myself as anything else. A trans man–a person who would fight to be this gender? Reminds me that men have value too.
Turns out identity is pretty important.
As if that “logic” would ever work on terfs. Case in point men hating lesbian terfs. If they hate men so much you’d think they would cheer on every man who wants to be a woman. Yet they hate trans women the hardest of all terfs.
Trans women, you see, are posers. They’re evil perverted men who want to Infiltrate Women’s Spaces™ to make us feel unsafe. They don’t want to become women in any meaningful way. Men are evil by their very nature. As everyone knows, of course, the gene for being aggressive and hostile and lacking empathy is on the Y-chromosome. Any man who claims to want to try to become a woman is lying to gain your trust, and he’s probably going to rape you down the line (or something idk I’m not a terf)
Trans men, though, them I will never understand. Why would anyone want to become an aggressive, angry, uncontrollable, lust-fueled monster unless they hated us and our cause and everything it stood for?
I’m pretty convinced that the only people that care that a person is trans has issues with themselves and are projecting. I’m a cis normie and I never, ever think about my gender. It just is and I find these haters incredibly weird. I really feel for the people who do as that must be an incredibly difficult thing to work through, so why make it harder for them. Plus, seeing loved ones bloom after transitioning is all the proof I need. Hate takes effort.
I think youre right for a lot of people, but conservative values require an out group. If it’s not immigrants and transfolk, it’s gonna be whomever else they can get people frothing at mouth over. Homeless people, mentally ill, it could be fucking left-handed folk. It’s only the othering that matters.
Removed by mod
Right-wingers are the kings of “NO U.” https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reactionary
Not every conservative that says you can choose your sexual orientation is gay, but that argument was started by a closeted gay conservative and was popularized by closeted gay conservatives. And that’s the exact same story for most conservative bullshit. They all think they are the Standard Human™ and they feel some shame about part of themselves (because they aren’t the Standard Human™) so they force that insecurity on everyone else. The rest of them follow suit as long as a line is already popular enough.
Just ask if they wake up and choose to be straight every morning. If they say yes, then you understand them. If they say no, then tell them they understand how gay people feel.
The cognitive dissonance will kick in at this point, but maybe they’ll understand. Maybe…
Same logic.
And then everyone clapped. Based if true though. Cursed username however. 7.5/10
I want to belieeeeeve
Edit also what’s the username reference?
I think it’s a reference to an anime: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puella_Magi_Madoka_Magica
Re: username: i was thinking this was just an instance of rimjobsteve
I remember this. Read it in “Fantastic Tales and other Fictions”
