Stats in more equal countries prove otherwise, the only way you’re making people have more babies is by getting rid of women rights, I don’t feel like pulling up all the numbers again but it’s the second time I’m having to correct the “if people had more means they would have more kids” theory on Lemmy.
I never suggested it’s a good idea to reduce women rights, I’m saying that the reason birthrate was higher in the past and is higher in some places at the moment is because women didn’t/don’t have rights, it has nothing to do with income.
Also, about your first point, I already covered that when I mentioned that those who are poor tend to have more kids than those who have the means to easily afford to have them. Hell, poor people have more kids than rich people who could stop working.
It’s not about money or access to child care or social programs, it’s about choice. When they’re given the choice the vast majority of people don’t want a family big enough for the population to renew itself, you’ll find exceptions (I’ve got two colleagues who have four children each) but the average will still be under 2.1 if people can easily prevent unwanted pregnancies. There’s nothing new to it either as I showed and if you look at historical data in first world country it’s always the same pattern (no matter the quantity of social programs to help parents or the amount of parental leaves that they get) and we’re seeing that pattern repeat itself in developing countries.
Maybe that is the “Great Filter” that will end our society but I don’t think anyone has entirely demonstrated that. up to now higher birth rate is related to women specifically not having choices, but that doesn’t mean we need to go back to that.
Many people do want kids, so if we as a society want to encourage that, we need to make that choice easier. We need to support those people and their choices. We all need to take responsibility for all of our future. It does “take a village” and our society needs to find a way to do that and still respect human rights
Again, people are acting like the USA is the only country that exists and ignoring all other States where having kids is much easier and where the birthrate is the same or lower.
US is at 1.66, Finland at 1.46. Finland offers much better social services and safety nets and socioeconomic equality than the USA, it also means women with more education, better access to abortion (even though the number of abortions is decreasing because they’re not necessary in the first place if people have access to contraceptives, which they do in Finland), better access to a profession…
The more equal women are to men, the less kids they have… and I mean, why would people expect anything else? They’re the ones who take care of the majority of the tasks related to raising children, given the choice they would rather have the same quality of life as men and get to do stuff for themselves instead of living for someone else!
You’ve completely changed your comment so now my first reply doesn’t make sense.
That drop coincides with what? Women going to work, which is a form of women right. Do you want to prevent women from working?
You can also see it reached a floor then started dropping again when women acquired more rights even before life started becoming unaffordable (as can be seen in my Canadian graphics as well).
Again, that ignores the fact that rich people (who don’t have to work) have less kids and that’s been the case for ages, it just so happens that rich women have access to education and contraceptives and that’s been the case for over a hundred years.
That’s GDP of the country, and not the number of children born to parents who don’t have to work. It states that rich countries have a lower birth rate.
ignores the fact that rich people (who don’t have to work) have less kids
Stats in more equal countries prove otherwise, the only way you’re making people have more babies is by getting rid of women rights, I don’t feel like pulling up all the numbers again but it’s the second time I’m having to correct the “if people had more means they would have more kids” theory on Lemmy.
Child care is expensive, who looks after the child if both parents have or choose to work?
“Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness” - to remove women’s rights would rather contradict this I think.
I never suggested it’s a good idea to reduce women rights, I’m saying that the reason birthrate was higher in the past and is higher in some places at the moment is because women didn’t/don’t have rights, it has nothing to do with income.
Also, about your first point, I already covered that when I mentioned that those who are poor tend to have more kids than those who have the means to easily afford to have them. Hell, poor people have more kids than rich people who could stop working.
It’s not about money or access to child care or social programs, it’s about choice. When they’re given the choice the vast majority of people don’t want a family big enough for the population to renew itself, you’ll find exceptions (I’ve got two colleagues who have four children each) but the average will still be under 2.1 if people can easily prevent unwanted pregnancies. There’s nothing new to it either as I showed and if you look at historical data in first world country it’s always the same pattern (no matter the quantity of social programs to help parents or the amount of parental leaves that they get) and we’re seeing that pattern repeat itself in developing countries.
People just don’t want kids if they can help it.
Perhaps, or people think more before having kids (also contraception makes it easier to prevent pregnancy in the first place)
Maybe that is the “Great Filter” that will end our society but I don’t think anyone has entirely demonstrated that. up to now higher birth rate is related to women specifically not having choices, but that doesn’t mean we need to go back to that.
Many people do want kids, so if we as a society want to encourage that, we need to make that choice easier. We need to support those people and their choices. We all need to take responsibility for all of our future. It does “take a village” and our society needs to find a way to do that and still respect human rights
Again, people are acting like the USA is the only country that exists and ignoring all other States where having kids is much easier and where the birthrate is the same or lower.
US is at 1.66, Finland at 1.46. Finland offers much better social services and safety nets and socioeconomic equality than the USA, it also means women with more education, better access to abortion (even though the number of abortions is decreasing because they’re not necessary in the first place if people have access to contraceptives, which they do in Finland), better access to a profession…
The more equal women are to men, the less kids they have… and I mean, why would people expect anything else? They’re the ones who take care of the majority of the tasks related to raising children, given the choice they would rather have the same quality of life as men and get to do stuff for themselves instead of living for someone else!
Great! Seems like you have good ideas for next steps!
Yep, and people are already doing it including me, stop having kids.
You’ve completely changed your comment so now my first reply doesn’t make sense.
That drop coincides with what? Women going to work, which is a form of women right. Do you want to prevent women from working?
You can also see it reached a floor then started dropping again when women acquired more rights even before life started becoming unaffordable (as can be seen in my Canadian graphics as well).
Yep, sorry! I did change the comment
Again, that ignores the fact that rich people (who don’t have to work) have less kids and that’s been the case for ages, it just so happens that rich women have access to education and contraceptives and that’s been the case for over a hundred years.
You’d have to provide some data about not having to work and birthrates. According to table 2, by far the largest proportion of births is to those who are unclassified. https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/livebirths/articles/anoteonchildbearingbysocioeconomicstatusandcountryofbirthofmother/2016
However it doesn’t distinguish between being wealthy, on benefits or perhaps being a student!
This paper suggests that the fall coincides with the industrial revolution. https://www.jstor.org/stable/44289704?seq=1
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_and_fertility
It’s a very well known and studied phenomenon.
That’s GDP of the country, and not the number of children born to parents who don’t have to work. It states that rich countries have a lower birth rate.
Do you think multimillionaires have to work and that people who make under 25k don’t?
https://www.statista.com/statistics/241530/birth-rate-by-family-income-in-the-us/