I didnāt say China was a victim of the imperial west because a person would at the very least have to include Japan in the west for that to make any sense. A person could make that statement but I didnāt.
Thatās fair enough. The reason why I didnāt include that is that most people I know include modern day Japan in āthe westā since thatās where they have the closest ties and it was more modern than I thought you were talking about given the talk of the long history of the region vs Israel.
I didnāt say that Israel was an extension of the imperial west because that would condense the interactions between Zionist formations before its creation and Israel as a state afterwards and the Anglosphere and Europe into an unhelpful mess.
I didnāt use language like āI seeā because opinion or perspective donāt enter into the conversation. Anyone can look at those statements and recognize that theyāre true and relatively uncolored by āpoliticalā thought. That Israel is a settler state might bug some liberals, but I was careful to try and use neutral language.
Thatās fine. The history of that area of the world more than most others is a complicated mess. Itās reasonably neutral language and I agree with the accuracy of history being referenced.
I did that because I think it should be clear to anyone that a comparison between Sinophobia and antisemitism is absurd. A person doesnāt need to be a Marxist to recognize that. A doctrinaire liberal would recognize it. Nazis literally made whole branches of race science to accommodate the fact that they recognized it.
So here is part of where you are losing me.
First, how exactly does this connect to the previous statements about their histories? What about their histories being different precludes us from comparing and contrasting them. Is it only in the context of historical racism that we canāt compare them? Could I compare their GDPs? Can I compare their government structures? I am not seeing the connection you are trying to draw between the differences in their history and our inability to compare the racism their peoples have / are facing.
As stated before, I also donāt see the connection you are trying to to draw between the people who make up the majority of a particular institution and the institution itself. I have no reason to think institutions have feelings or personhood. I donāt care about the instructions themselves other than the good they do for their people and the people around them. Other than making up some or most of the workers in that institution, what is the connection between the instruction itself and the people?
Second, why is it absurd to compare two similar things? We can easily compare the racism faced by Chinese people with racism faced by Jewish people with racism faced by black people. And how does this tie into the correlation I believe you are drawing between the people and the government? Is it that you believe one group is overall on the receiving end of the mistreatment and the other is overall on the giving side of mistreatment?
I donāt agree that anyone or even most people would find it absurd to compare two things with so much overlap. Both China and Israel are countries. Both have predominate people groups that have faced historical racism and mistreatment. Sinophobia and antisemitism are both objectively bad things that cause harm based on inherited characteristics. I donāt see why this is so preposterous to you. And I donāt see how the history of their mistreatment changes anything?
If I can ask directly, does being the victim of racism or any other mistreatment give you any more leeway in causing harm to others? If not then I donāt understand why bringing up their history matters. And if so, why should I let people who have been victims victimize others? Again, isnāt this just bigotry of low expectations?
The nations and people are wildly different and responding to someone pointing that out when you try to draw parallels between discrimination and hate leveled at them by saying that person is handwaving is deeply unserious.
The reason I said hand waving is because you have answered very few questions directly. To your credit, you have done so in this reply.
What it sounds like you are saying (you can correct me if youād like) is that itās unfair to compare the actions of these two governments because their histories are so different. That itās fair to criticize Israel and doing so isnāt antisemitic, but not fair to criticize China and doing so is sinophobic. And the reason for that (again as far as I can tell) is their different histories of oppression. My problem here is I donāt agree that criticism of a government = criticism of a people group and I donāt agree that people groups who have historically faced oppression should be less open to being criticized for bad actions.
When people say āapples and orangesā itās not because two things are irreconcilably different, itās because accepting and recognizing their differences and describing them on their own terms is much more important than using one to talk about the other.
Both apples and oranges are round, both grow on trees, both are fruits. I could probably think for a while and list off a bunch of similarities. Theyāre also fundamentally different to the point that a person canāt effectively use an understanding on one to transmit an understanding of the other.
I canāt tell you about the flavor, texture or smell of an orange using your understanding of the flavor, texture or smell of an apple as a baseline. I could try but ultimately the better way would be for you to bite into an orange. My comparison wouldnāt be useful.
You can and did compare antisemitism and Sinophobia. I responded that the comparison isnāt useful because of the vast differences. We went back and forth about this and here we are.
I said that it wouldnāt be useful to compare the two because it wouldnāt transmit understanding. With each parallel a person tries to draw, myriad differences and fractal relationships arise and must be dealt with.
We send a simple particle into the cloud chamber and an array of arcs, lines and spirals must now be accounted for.
I do not think itās unfair to compare the two, I think itās not useful. The context of that usefulness is our discussion and the measure of that usefulness is the comparisons ability to transmit understanding. As evidence Iād present our discussion in which it does not transmit understanding.
I chose not to just say the same thing someone else said but: there are plenty of criticisms of the Israeli and Chinese governments with varying degrees of antisemitism and Sinophobia as their underpinnings.
āChinese people canāt talk about tiannamenā isnāt one whose underpinnings have zero degrees of Sinophobia. I explained how a while back.
Thatās a great analogy and it certainly helps clear up your view!
there are plenty of criticisms of the Israeli and Chinese governments with varying degrees of antisemitism and Sinophobia as their underpinnings.
By āunderpinningsā, are you saying racism is the underlying cause for the criticism / the public statement of that criticism or just one of the underlying causes. Is it a ābut-forā in that a person wouldnāt make those criticisms but-for their underlying racism? Would it be possible for a person without those underlying racist attitudes or feelings to have the same criticisms of the actions of that government?
So, here is what I believe you are saying: People have underlying racism towards Chinese people that motivates them to make criticisms of the Chinese government (that they couldnāt or wouldnāt make but-for that underlying racism?).
Depending on a lot of specifics I could agree. If a but-for is what you are arguing, I donāt think I could agree with that, at least in the specific context of the original claim regarding TS. You have pointed to some racist attitudes towards Chinese people that correlate or overlap with the TS claim (not knowing their history, not standing up against an unfair government, etc) but, in my opinion, those are tangentially related. The lack of historical knowledge would be a direct result of the actions of the government in repressing that knowledge. The claim is not that the information is freely available without consequences or attempts to hide / manipulate it and the people are putting their fingers in their ears and saying āla la laā. Not standing up to an unjust government could be argued from the perspective of today but was exactly what the people in TS were trying to do. It wouldnāt make sense for someone who really believed Chinese people were too docile to stand up to a government to claim they stood up to the government and now the government is hiding the information about it. The expected outcome from that belief doesnāt match the nature of this claim.
If itās not a but-for, then it could just as easily be valid criticism of the Chinese government that, by happenstance alone, overlaps with racist claims. You may find this unlikely, but if itās possible for a person without that animus to have the same criticisms then you would need to believe you understand that specific personās motivates to make the claim. It would no longer be a blanket-true statement that these claims are coming from racist attitudes.
That said, itās theoretically possible for there to be a claim that is but-for the underlying racism. I would have to give an analogy that might muddy the waters again, but Iām sure you could imagine one given any people group and racist claims. The issue here is that I donāt believe you have sufficiently shown that it would not be possible for a person absent racist animus to claim that the Chinese government attempts to hide and discourage open and free discussions, information, and memorials surrounding the events of TS. Their mere proximity to those racist attitudes isnāt sufficient.
Underpinning is both a noun and a verb. When a structure is internally sound, but is in danger of falling over maybe because the ground underneath it is washed away or unstable, a person might install supports called underpinnings in a process calledā¦ underpinning.
I did not say that racism is the underlying cause of people making statements about China. In the sentence directly after the one you quoted I specified how what I said related explicitly to our topic of conversation.
I want to push back some on your language regarding racism. Racism exists in forms that do not show animosity and instead simply reify existing racist ideas, structures, history and values. A person doesnāt need animus to exhibit racism. A long time ago in this very thread I stated that fact.
This was your original comment (parts that are struck-out are not relevant):
I think there were two links to the gore page people post and a couple of responses saying you couldnāt even talk about tiannamen square.
The first is clear what it is, Iād call the second one sinophobic because itās patently untrue and is basically an anti-china buzzword now. Idk why mods did what they did.
Your argument was that the statement, āyou couldnāt even talk about tiannamen squareā was sinophobic. And the reason provided was that itās:
patently untrue
basically an anti-china buzzword now.
Saying āthat statement isnāt one that has zero sinophobic underpinningsā is quite a bit different. I am not arguing that there are 0 racist āunderpinningsā. But, if the standard for racism is āhas at least one racist underpinningsā then I think you may have an easier time writing the list of statements that are not racist. If that is the standard, then saying something is racist risks losing all meaning since almost everything would be.
I have been saying that it is not sinophobic because it is:
not demonstrated to be untrue, much less patently. You havenāt provided any evidence for it being untrue and itās certainly not clearly, or without a doubt, untrue.
at best anti-ccp not anti-chinese. It is a popular criticism of China pointed to by both those who have clearly racist motivations and intents and those who do not.
a bad framework to determine if something is sinophobic/racist or not. The truthfulness of a statement doesnāt impact its racism. There are true things that have racist underpinnings and false things that do not. Even if something is a popular buzzword used predominantly by people who have the worst motives, it would not be inherently racist.
Youāre correct that animus is not required for something to be racist. However, itās hard to imagine that you intended to mean āthe claim is sinophobic because itās patently untrue and has a non-zero number of racist underpinnings but without animus.ā
I want to believe things that are true and have good reasoning and evidence to support them. Ideally, Iād like others to do the same. If what you are saying is true and thereās good reasoning and evidence for it, Iād like to believe it too. If not, ideally, Iād like to see you not believe it. Additionally, I want to say things that help what I fight for, a better world for all, and avoid those that donāt.
I canāt make you do anything. You donāt have to respond, convince me, or change your mind. Youāve never had to. Why do you keep responding (not flippant, a genuine question)?
As I said previously, I believe statements like yours harm the cause I believe we share. If thereās a way to get you to see that and stop doing that then, I believe, the world would be the tiniest bit better in that thereās a better chance to get the improved world I, and I believe you, fight for. If it could be shown to me that statements like yours are true (by evidence and gold reasoning) and beneficial to the cause then Iād start saying them.
I donāt believe itās either true or helpful to the cause to provide cover for authoritarian governments by pointing to valid criticism and declaring it racist, regardless of the mere presence of racist underpinnings. I would find it untrue and unhelpful in all cases, but especially those where the government wears the name tag commonly associated with the better world I want. Doing so ties that dream of a better world to the failures of the past that, although were likely well-intentioned, didnāt result in that better world and in some cases made the lives of their citizens worse. My economic stances come downstream of my desire to see human rights respected by all and human flourishing to expand.
Thatās going to depend on a lot of specifics, but if it could be sufficiently demonstrated, yes.
Are they going to be able to speak reliably about government policy? Are they going to show evidence of actual memorial services? What level of knowledge of the events could they demonstrate? Are they going to be able to show that the government is not attempting to censor information or discourage open discussions or memorial events? A handful of anecdotes that people have vague notions of something big happening at that place and time would be anything but remarkable.
Are they going to disprove the reports of arrests for āseditious social media posts about an upcoming sensitive date?ā Or that they removed books about TS from libraries in HK in 2023 after they reasserted control over HK? Is it going to link to government data about those who were killed, injured, forcibly disappeared, or imprisoned? Is it going to show that police havenāt been stationed outside the homes of or disappeared people who were connected with the events of TS or its memorial services? Is it going to show that the government is not blocking search terms or Wikipedia pages about the events?
If all it will be is statements from the general Chinese public that they āknow about what happened at TSā that would be unremarkable. I have no doubt that the governmentās attempt to hide information hasnāt been fully successful and that people believe they know all that happened. That would not show that they do or that the information is freely available, or that the government is not doing the things outlined in the evidence Iāve provided so far.
Thatās fair enough. The reason why I didnāt include that is that most people I know include modern day Japan in āthe westā since thatās where they have the closest ties and it was more modern than I thought you were talking about given the talk of the long history of the region vs Israel.
Thatās fine. The history of that area of the world more than most others is a complicated mess. Itās reasonably neutral language and I agree with the accuracy of history being referenced.
So here is part of where you are losing me.
First, how exactly does this connect to the previous statements about their histories? What about their histories being different precludes us from comparing and contrasting them. Is it only in the context of historical racism that we canāt compare them? Could I compare their GDPs? Can I compare their government structures? I am not seeing the connection you are trying to draw between the differences in their history and our inability to compare the racism their peoples have / are facing.
As stated before, I also donāt see the connection you are trying to to draw between the people who make up the majority of a particular institution and the institution itself. I have no reason to think institutions have feelings or personhood. I donāt care about the instructions themselves other than the good they do for their people and the people around them. Other than making up some or most of the workers in that institution, what is the connection between the instruction itself and the people?
Second, why is it absurd to compare two similar things? We can easily compare the racism faced by Chinese people with racism faced by Jewish people with racism faced by black people. And how does this tie into the correlation I believe you are drawing between the people and the government? Is it that you believe one group is overall on the receiving end of the mistreatment and the other is overall on the giving side of mistreatment?
I donāt agree that anyone or even most people would find it absurd to compare two things with so much overlap. Both China and Israel are countries. Both have predominate people groups that have faced historical racism and mistreatment. Sinophobia and antisemitism are both objectively bad things that cause harm based on inherited characteristics. I donāt see why this is so preposterous to you. And I donāt see how the history of their mistreatment changes anything?
If I can ask directly, does being the victim of racism or any other mistreatment give you any more leeway in causing harm to others? If not then I donāt understand why bringing up their history matters. And if so, why should I let people who have been victims victimize others? Again, isnāt this just bigotry of low expectations?
The reason I said hand waving is because you have answered very few questions directly. To your credit, you have done so in this reply.
What it sounds like you are saying (you can correct me if youād like) is that itās unfair to compare the actions of these two governments because their histories are so different. That itās fair to criticize Israel and doing so isnāt antisemitic, but not fair to criticize China and doing so is sinophobic. And the reason for that (again as far as I can tell) is their different histories of oppression. My problem here is I donāt agree that criticism of a government = criticism of a people group and I donāt agree that people groups who have historically faced oppression should be less open to being criticized for bad actions.
When people say āapples and orangesā itās not because two things are irreconcilably different, itās because accepting and recognizing their differences and describing them on their own terms is much more important than using one to talk about the other.
Both apples and oranges are round, both grow on trees, both are fruits. I could probably think for a while and list off a bunch of similarities. Theyāre also fundamentally different to the point that a person canāt effectively use an understanding on one to transmit an understanding of the other.
I canāt tell you about the flavor, texture or smell of an orange using your understanding of the flavor, texture or smell of an apple as a baseline. I could try but ultimately the better way would be for you to bite into an orange. My comparison wouldnāt be useful.
You can and did compare antisemitism and Sinophobia. I responded that the comparison isnāt useful because of the vast differences. We went back and forth about this and here we are.
I said that it wouldnāt be useful to compare the two because it wouldnāt transmit understanding. With each parallel a person tries to draw, myriad differences and fractal relationships arise and must be dealt with.
We send a simple particle into the cloud chamber and an array of arcs, lines and spirals must now be accounted for.
I do not think itās unfair to compare the two, I think itās not useful. The context of that usefulness is our discussion and the measure of that usefulness is the comparisons ability to transmit understanding. As evidence Iād present our discussion in which it does not transmit understanding.
I chose not to just say the same thing someone else said but: there are plenty of criticisms of the Israeli and Chinese governments with varying degrees of antisemitism and Sinophobia as their underpinnings.
āChinese people canāt talk about tiannamenā isnāt one whose underpinnings have zero degrees of Sinophobia. I explained how a while back.
Thatās a great analogy and it certainly helps clear up your view!
By āunderpinningsā, are you saying racism is the underlying cause for the criticism / the public statement of that criticism or just one of the underlying causes. Is it a ābut-forā in that a person wouldnāt make those criticisms but-for their underlying racism? Would it be possible for a person without those underlying racist attitudes or feelings to have the same criticisms of the actions of that government?
So, here is what I believe you are saying: People have underlying racism towards Chinese people that motivates them to make criticisms of the Chinese government (that they couldnāt or wouldnāt make but-for that underlying racism?).
Depending on a lot of specifics I could agree. If a but-for is what you are arguing, I donāt think I could agree with that, at least in the specific context of the original claim regarding TS. You have pointed to some racist attitudes towards Chinese people that correlate or overlap with the TS claim (not knowing their history, not standing up against an unfair government, etc) but, in my opinion, those are tangentially related. The lack of historical knowledge would be a direct result of the actions of the government in repressing that knowledge. The claim is not that the information is freely available without consequences or attempts to hide / manipulate it and the people are putting their fingers in their ears and saying āla la laā. Not standing up to an unjust government could be argued from the perspective of today but was exactly what the people in TS were trying to do. It wouldnāt make sense for someone who really believed Chinese people were too docile to stand up to a government to claim they stood up to the government and now the government is hiding the information about it. The expected outcome from that belief doesnāt match the nature of this claim.
If itās not a but-for, then it could just as easily be valid criticism of the Chinese government that, by happenstance alone, overlaps with racist claims. You may find this unlikely, but if itās possible for a person without that animus to have the same criticisms then you would need to believe you understand that specific personās motivates to make the claim. It would no longer be a blanket-true statement that these claims are coming from racist attitudes.
That said, itās theoretically possible for there to be a claim that is but-for the underlying racism. I would have to give an analogy that might muddy the waters again, but Iām sure you could imagine one given any people group and racist claims. The issue here is that I donāt believe you have sufficiently shown that it would not be possible for a person absent racist animus to claim that the Chinese government attempts to hide and discourage open and free discussions, information, and memorials surrounding the events of TS. Their mere proximity to those racist attitudes isnāt sufficient.
Underpinning is both a noun and a verb. When a structure is internally sound, but is in danger of falling over maybe because the ground underneath it is washed away or unstable, a person might install supports called underpinnings in a process calledā¦ underpinning.
I did not say that racism is the underlying cause of people making statements about China. In the sentence directly after the one you quoted I specified how what I said related explicitly to our topic of conversation.
I want to push back some on your language regarding racism. Racism exists in forms that do not show animosity and instead simply reify existing racist ideas, structures, history and values. A person doesnāt need animus to exhibit racism. A long time ago in this very thread I stated that fact.
This was your original comment (parts that are struck-out are not relevant):
Your argument was that the statement, āyou couldnāt even talk about tiannamen squareā was sinophobic. And the reason provided was that itās:
patently untrue
basically an anti-china buzzword now.
Saying āthat statement isnāt one that has zero sinophobic underpinningsā is quite a bit different. I am not arguing that there are 0 racist āunderpinningsā. But, if the standard for racism is āhas at least one racist underpinningsā then I think you may have an easier time writing the list of statements that are not racist. If that is the standard, then saying something is racist risks losing all meaning since almost everything would be.
I have been saying that it is not sinophobic because it is:
not demonstrated to be untrue, much less patently. You havenāt provided any evidence for it being untrue and itās certainly not clearly, or without a doubt, untrue.
at best anti-ccp not anti-chinese. It is a popular criticism of China pointed to by both those who have clearly racist motivations and intents and those who do not.
a bad framework to determine if something is sinophobic/racist or not. The truthfulness of a statement doesnāt impact its racism. There are true things that have racist underpinnings and false things that do not. Even if something is a popular buzzword used predominantly by people who have the worst motives, it would not be inherently racist.
Youāre correct that animus is not required for something to be racist. However, itās hard to imagine that you intended to mean āthe claim is sinophobic because itās patently untrue and has a non-zero number of racist underpinnings but without animus.ā
Whatās your endgame here?
I want to believe things that are true and have good reasoning and evidence to support them. Ideally, Iād like others to do the same. If what you are saying is true and thereās good reasoning and evidence for it, Iād like to believe it too. If not, ideally, Iād like to see you not believe it. Additionally, I want to say things that help what I fight for, a better world for all, and avoid those that donāt.
I canāt make you do anything. You donāt have to respond, convince me, or change your mind. Youāve never had to. Why do you keep responding (not flippant, a genuine question)?
As I said previously, I believe statements like yours harm the cause I believe we share. If thereās a way to get you to see that and stop doing that then, I believe, the world would be the tiniest bit better in that thereās a better chance to get the improved world I, and I believe you, fight for. If it could be shown to me that statements like yours are true (by evidence and gold reasoning) and beneficial to the cause then Iād start saying them.
I donāt believe itās either true or helpful to the cause to provide cover for authoritarian governments by pointing to valid criticism and declaring it racist, regardless of the mere presence of racist underpinnings. I would find it untrue and unhelpful in all cases, but especially those where the government wears the name tag commonly associated with the better world I want. Doing so ties that dream of a better world to the failures of the past that, although were likely well-intentioned, didnāt result in that better world and in some cases made the lives of their citizens worse. My economic stances come downstream of my desire to see human rights respected by all and human flourishing to expand.
Would you believe that Chinese people can talk about tiannamen if you saw their words?
Thatās going to depend on a lot of specifics, but if it could be sufficiently demonstrated, yes.
Are they going to be able to speak reliably about government policy? Are they going to show evidence of actual memorial services? What level of knowledge of the events could they demonstrate? Are they going to be able to show that the government is not attempting to censor information or discourage open discussions or memorial events? A handful of anecdotes that people have vague notions of something big happening at that place and time would be anything but remarkable.
Are they going to disprove the reports of arrests for āseditious social media posts about an upcoming sensitive date?ā Or that they removed books about TS from libraries in HK in 2023 after they reasserted control over HK? Is it going to link to government data about those who were killed, injured, forcibly disappeared, or imprisoned? Is it going to show that police havenāt been stationed outside the homes of or disappeared people who were connected with the events of TS or its memorial services? Is it going to show that the government is not blocking search terms or Wikipedia pages about the events?
If all it will be is statements from the general Chinese public that they āknow about what happened at TSā that would be unremarkable. I have no doubt that the governmentās attempt to hide information hasnāt been fully successful and that people believe they know all that happened. That would not show that they do or that the information is freely available, or that the government is not doing the things outlined in the evidence Iāve provided so far.