If you saw the movie and/or played modern warfare 2 you know what I’m talking about.

  • tal@lemmy.today
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    2 months ago

    [continued from parent]

    Hawaii was never actually invaded by Japan in World War II, but I understand that there were potentially plans to do so, had Japan won the Battle of Midway, rather than it being a catastrophic loss. What I’ve seen of post-war analysis suggests that Japan probably would not have been able to successfully do so. We can’t know for sure what such an occupation might have looked like. During the attack on Pearl Harbor, there was initially a great deal of confusion, but one immediate response on the island was concern about an impending Japanese invasion. Many civilians did go and get firearms, and while their actions were haphazard, uncoordinated, and in some cases disruptive to official defense efforts – this included doing things like setting up roadblocks and questioning anyone who looked Japanese and randomly shooting at low-flying aircraft – they did act rather than just remaining passive; which to me rather supports the probability of an active resistance had an invasion occurred. Some of this was in ad hoc conjunction with official efforts:

    https://www.nps.gov/parkhistory/online_books/wapa/extcontent/usmc/pcn-190-003116-00/sec4a.htm

    He also called for runners from all groups in the battalion and established his command post at the parade ground’s south corner, and ordered the almost 150 civilians who had showed up looking for ways to help out to report to the machine gun storeroom and fill ammunition belts and clean weapons. Among other actions, he also instructed the battalion sergeant major to be ready to safeguard important papers from the headquarters barracks.

    While Marines were busily setting up the 3-inch guns, several civilian yard workmen grabbed up rifles and “brought their fire to bear upon the enemy,” allowing Swartz’s men to continue their work.

    In a number of historical defensive battles, American civilians did show up at the door of whatever conventional military forces were around, sometimes with firearms, sometimes not, and participated in them. The Battle of Wake Island, when Japan invaded that place:

    https://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USMC/USMC-C-Wake.html

    Putnam had placed Captain Elrod in command of one flank of VMF-211’s defensive line, which was situated in dense undergrowth. In the impenetrable darkness, the squadron executive officer and his men–most of whom were unarmed civilians who acted as weapons and ammunition carriers (until weapons became available)–conducted a spirited defense which repeated attacks by Special Naval Landing Force troops could not dislodge.

    That was not a guerrilla war; Wake Island’s terrain didn’t really permit for much of a guerrilla war, but a conventional action.

    The American Revolutionary War in general had a fair bit of guerrilla activity.

    In the War of 1812, the Battle of New Orleans is really conventional warfare, not guerrilla, but would perhaps be an example of mostly-militia and volunteer forces successful directly successfully-opposing conventional military forces. The War of 1812 had technically ended by that point, but word had not yet reached either British or American forces, and until then, fighting continued. The British sought to capture New Orleans and blockade the Mississippi River, then an even more-critical transport path than it was today; there were few roads back then, and the Mississippi provided access to the interior from the ocean; a British capture would not change the outcome of the war, but would provide the British with a stronger hand at the post-war negotiating table. The ~8,000-strong British attacking force consisted of regular members of the military, albeit a significant number of members of the Royal Navy being present who were not normally used as infantry forces. The great bulk of the American forces were militia or civilian volunteers who showed up; they won a pretty one-sided victory.

    Even so, the British greatly outnumbered the Americans. Jackson’s total of 4,732 men was made up of 968 Army regulars, 58 Marines (holding the center of the defensive line), 106 Navy seamen, 1,060 Louisiana militia and volunteers (including 462 Black people), 1,352 Tennessee militia, 986 Kentucky militia, 150 Mississippi militia, and 52 Choctaw warriors, along with a force from pirate Jean Lafitte’s Baratarians.

    The American Civil War had a variety of forms of guerrilla activity:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bushwhacker

    Bushwhacking was a form of guerrilla warfare common during the American Revolutionary War, War of 1812, American Civil War and other conflicts in which there were large areas of contested land and few governmental resources to control these tracts. This was particularly prevalent in rural areas during the Civil War where there were sharp divisions between those favoring the Union and Confederacy in the conflict. The perpetrators of the attacks were called bushwhackers. The term “bushwhacking” is still in use today to describe ambushes done with the aim of attrition.[1]

    Bushwhackers were generally part of the irregular military forces on both sides. While bushwhackers conducted well-organized raids against the military, the most dire of the attacks involved ambushes of individuals and house raids in rural areas.

    Looking that over, I think I can reasonably say that there’s pretty substantial historical precedent for there being civilian willingness and ability to conduct guerrilla warfare, as long as the population and terrain is sufficient to permit for it (i.e. we’re talking about something more like Guam than Howland Island). However, the government has historically also generally favored using volunteers willing to do so to provide information or otherwise assist conventional forces if that’s practical, maybe doing sabotage, rather than encouraging the public to independently conduct higher-intensity warfare directly against conventional forces, assuming that there’s a conventional relief force that can be sent. So my guess is that yeah, you could see something like Red Dawn, as long as you could come up with a scenario where an occupation could occur in a political and military sense, and there is some political and military precedent for countries trying to occupy part of countries. The American government – which would still be around, unlike in Red Dawn – has usually aimed for using such volunteers in either a conventional, non-guerrilla form, or at a lower level of intensity if a relief force coming; I doubt that the American government would likely actively seek to create a large-scale guerrilla warfare effort in such a scenario.