I appreciate where the author of this article is coming from, but I think they’re being a bit too one-sided.
For example, they make the point that zoos don’t contribute enough to conservation, donating only around 5% of their spending, as if the millions of dollars given doesn’t justify their existence. But if zoos didn’t exist, that’s a big chunk of money that wouldn’t be going towards conservation at all.
They also talk about the education aspect, that visitors don’t necessarily read the information about the animals and instead go for the spectacle. But a child isn’t going to read those plaques regardless, but seeing animals up close might ignite an interest in conservation later in life.
And one thing that the article doesn’t really go into is the fact that humans are still actively hunting animals in the wild, and destroying habitats for profit. And while I think zoos are a bit of a band-aid fix when it comes to endangered species, I’d much rather see an animal in captivity surrounded by zookeepers that care about it rather than extinction.
In an ideal world, zoos wouldn’t exist. In a slightly less ideal world, only open-plain zoos would exist. But we are a very long way from that, and I personally believe that reputable zoos are a positive in the world we currently live in.
Hunting also needs to be looked at objectively. Many people hunt, and for many different reasons.
Poor people will hunt because it’s is free food. Some risk they’re lives to do it. Some places like Tanzania will kill poachers. We need to look into removing that incentive, as in, we need to reduce global poverty.
I hunt because one deer will be most of my meat for a year. The price to have someone else cut it up makes it cost the same as cheap grocery store ground beef, but it tastes better and is much more eco friendly than that cute would have been.
Rich people BS hunting like I imagine you’re referring to is BS, but they pay big money to do it. The money they spend on that one animal funds the preservation of many times more animals, and by having a legal process to do it, there is less incentive to do it illegally, where accurate counts of animals taken can’t be done.
The first example I can think of showing the success of this is the American Alligator. They were almost wiped out, but now they flourish because people want to hunt and/or eat them. I think it’s something like 10 are raised fire every one that is allowed to be hunted. I’ll admit, it’s a bit like strange logic at first, but there are success stories to show it works.
I love animals. I even take care of the spiders at my house the best I can. But I hunt ethically as possible, just one legal deer a year. That deer lived a better life than a feed lot cow, didn’t need to clear cut or pollute land to live, and it was appreciated for it’s sacrifice every day by me, and I do my best to not waste a scrap of that meat, because I had to do the hard part myself.
I’ve met unethical hunters, and I won’t associate with them. They’re trash like any other cruel person. But most are regular people.
We drop them off at a beef farm for processing. They pack it up all nice like you’d get it from a butcher shop, mainly in pound size packaging. We get from 60 to 80 pounds typically. Then it goes in the freezer.
You can also donate them to the poor through the Game Commission I think. It’s our family’s primary source of meat though. I just empty my freezer by Thanksgiving and it have room for it all. I occasionally find some that’s from the last season and it’s still always been fine.
Here’s one pack of ground meat from last year I still have. We also got jerky sticks, sausage, and stew cubes and loins. They’re just wrapped in butchers paper.
I don’t totally disagree with you. Many animals from bugs to mice and birds are killed in the process of farming and the delivery of those goods to market.
If I hunt a deer, I can tell you exactly what my environmental cost was, exactly one deer. It’s not something I’m proud of, it’s just getting food for my home. I’m very grateful to it, and appropriate the sacrifice I asked of it.
You don’t have to agree with me on that. If you don’t use any animal products, I appreciate your decision. But no supply chain is free of environmental cost, and I think it’s fair to ask you to keep that in mind too.
It is true that all food production causes harm, death, and suffering.
The way I see it suffering and death of sentient beings should be minimised as much as practicable and possible.
More plants are needed to produce meat (as feed) than to produce plant based food directly. So even if crop production kills mice etc it is more ethical to eat plants than to eat produced meat.
Hunting is definitely better than factory farming in that regard. However, it is still taking a sentient life against its will. And it is not necessary.
Moreover, the purpose of producing plant based food is not to willfully breed animals into a life of suffering and death. Deaths as a result of crop production is not the goal of crop production. It is a side effect that we can minimise.
I wasn’t going to talk in this thread any more because it typically devolves into what most of the rest of this comment section looks like with stubborness from both sides, but you seem to be quite reasonable. Please understand I’m going to talk to you in good faith, with an open mind, and I have to desire to stir things up or make fun of you or anything. I like to discuss these things, but it feels very difficult to find people with nuance, especially online. But I hope we can have a polite discussion.
The way I see it suffering and death of sentient beings should be minimised as much as practicable and possible.
Absolutely agree with you. I think anyone who doesn’t feel this way is someone I don’t want to associate with.
More plants are needed to produce meat (as feed) than to produce plant based food directly.
Yup, this is well established scientific fact.
So even if crop production kills mice etc it is more ethical to eat plants than to eat produced meat.
As a non-vegan, this is one place I get kinda confused trying to see things from your point of view. Like I told the other guy, if I hunt 1 deer, I know I only hurt a single organism. I dont get any thrill out of it, I basically see it as part of Mother Nature’s grocery store. It’s a chore I don’t hate, but I see it more like a job than a hobby.
But nobody can measure what the true eco impact of modern massive farming is. Even the best consumer will never know where most of their food came from. We can’t tell what land damage was done, what species were impacted by how much, how much chemicals were used and what kinds, etc. Mechanized farming mows down anything in its path. Rabbits, moles, voles, birds, snakes, frogs, salamanders, racoons, possums, etc. The chemicals burn animal’s feet and kill our pollinators and spiders, runoff kills fish and other aquatic animals. I like a lot of animals people don’t typically like. Slimey ones, scaly ones, creepy crawlies, and so on. So why is hurting a mystery number of miscellaneous things automatically less bad? My issue is Big Ag and the systems that support it, not the vegans and vegetarians. We all eat, and there is a cost of lives no matter what we eat. But as I said, I can say my cost was one single thing. I’m fully aware of it, but I am thankful and respectful as I can possibly be for it. I just feel neither of us can make a claim of moral superiority over the other because we don’t have both sides of the equation to balance it out.
Moreover, the purpose of producing plant based food is not to willfully breed animals into a life of suffering and death. Deaths as a result of crop production is not the goal of crop production. It is a side effect that we can minimise.
Again, I feel we’re both in agreement modern mass farming is our real opponent, not each other. If we all had personal garden plots that fed our families, I feel that would solve a lot of these issues for both sides of these vegan vs omnivore discussions. We’ve gotten away from that kind of life as a society, and I don’t think that was one of mankind’s best decisions. Those like us that try to source the least destructive meals possible put a lot of trust into who we get food from.
I primarily eat grains and beans/lentils. I love the heck out of nearly all grains. I got some killer recipes for beans and lentils. I love tofu and seitan and falafel and Beyond burgers and sausages. But I also love paneer and butter and honey and yes, meat and seafood. I also think for some purposes, wool or leather are the best available materials to make certain things out of. If something else was better, I’d pick that first. But I try to keep learning about new synthetic materials and finding recipes that don’t always call for animal products. I use much less now than how I was raised. What I do use, I try my best to get this from more responsible sources. I don’t want to cause any unnecessary harm.
What does the world do with domesticated animals if there is no longer a need for them? They can’t live on their own anymore (except pigs, those are some terrifying creatures given the right circumstances) so so we just let them eventually die out? It seems odd and irresponsible that we’ve turned them into what they are, but we’d let them fade away. Raising livestock isn’t cheap or easy, but if it’s not a viable commercial product, who will invest that time and energy into them? And in addition to the cows and chickens and all that, why are domestic dogs and cats ok? I’ve had many pets, but after losing my last hound dog, I just can’t deal with losing another domestic animal. I don’t feel pets are right anymore. I’m not judging other people if they do have pets, but it feels like you guys are against keeping other animals in those kinds of situations, so why are pets different? I just stick to watching the animals in my backyard now. I’ll toss them some peanuts, which I know isn’t supposed to be good for them either, but they like them, and they’re free to do as they please.
However, it is still taking a sentient life against its will. And it is not necessary.
I saved this for last because to a certain extent I agree. From a food standpoint, I agree with you. I could give up all animal protein and be fine, as could near anyone else. But from a conservation perspective, I am going to politely disagree, and I feel killing a well regulated number of wild animals is a necessity.
People have done a number on this planet in so many ways. We’ve screwed with every ecosystem from North to South Pole and the balance that is supposed to exists does not. I’m only going to touch on the 2 animals in most familiar with two keep from spouting BS.
Deer populations do get out of hand very quickly. If you aren’t from the country and see them as majestic creatures, you have not seen how destructive large numbers of deer can be. From crop damage to landscape destruction, to just plain getting hit by cars, unregulated deer populations are not a joke.
Hunting is managed by a number of agencies. They don’t just say ok fellas, start shooting. They study all the animals all year long, determine how the populations should be adjusted, and issue that many licenses. Next year, the will adjust the number depending how their goals were met. It’s well planned by conservationists, not some Elmer Fudd free for all. People are paying to do a government job, and that money goes into more environmental programs. Some killing is done, but it’s to make a greater good for the wildlife as a whole.
The other animal I’ll talk about, which makes me very sad because it is illegal to possess any part of it, so there’s not even an upside to killing them, is owls. What people have done to old growth forests is a nightmare for a lot of species. Old trees CANNOT be replaced by new ones. That is a whole other topic.
Thousands of Barred Owls are killed by wildlife agencies every year for the last few decades. Barred Owls are amazing and beautiful creatures. But they also kill other owls. Environmental destruction has pushed them into places they didn’t used to be, and they are killing off very endangered owl species.
This article really is captures the dilemma conservationists face. There is no other practical way to stop invasive species. They’ve tried it all. I love all the animals, but owls are one of my favorites. Check my posts, I post about owls and their protection literally every day. But we need to kill some to try to undo the mess we’ve made of our planet. I hope to heck someday that isn’t true, but it is right now.
Well, this was way more than I intended to write, but I’m kinda stressed out today and it seems this helped me work some of my anxiety out. I hope you felt I’ve been respectful and genuine with you. I could talk about this stuff all day, I’m very passionate about it. Like everything else related to people, there’s miles of grey area, and compromises to be made from all perspectives. By thinking critically about the choices we make, we’re both working to be more responsible members of this place we share with our fellow creatures.
We won’t always see eye to eye, and that’s ok. I’ll keep working to understand your point of view, and even if you will never agree on hunting, I hope you read that owl article and can take something away from that about the heavy responsibility that comes with protecting animals. It doesn’t sound like a role you would want to play personally, and I respect that. But I hope you can see that it’s a responsibility I have chosen to accept. I do feel it’s for a greater good.
If you think I’m full of it, you’re welcome to think that, I just ask if that’s how you feel, let’s just both drop this conversation. But I hope I helped you understand a different viewpoint at least a little, and if you want to talk about anything more, we can.
I first have to say that I really appreciate your tone and your thought out arguments. Most of these types of discussions tend to devolve into non-constructive obstinacy.
And this particular area is a very grey and complex one, so I admit it is not completely black or white for me. And these are big issues that we humans honestly will most likely not solve in any way that either of us would be happy with.
I agree with you on many points, like you have pointed out. You seem to be compassionate, empathetic, and rational.
As a non-vegan, this is one place I get kinda confused trying to see things from your point of view. Like I told the other guy, if I hunt 1 deer, I know I only hurt a single organism. I dont get any thrill out of it, I basically see it as part of Mother Nature’s grocery store. It’s a chore I don’t hate, but I see it more like a job than a hobby.
I think this comes into where I believe our disagreement is. We mostly align in the utlitiarian aspects (I’m not really utilitarian, but I’ll get to that), but we differ in the aspect of commodification. I.e. I do not think we should see sentient beings as commodities. For example, I would not eat an animal who died in an accident. I assume, for instance, that you would not eat your dog if it died in a car crash, and I extend that reasoning to other animals as well.
Again, I feel we’re both in agreement modern mass farming is our real opponent, not each other. If we all had personal garden plots that fed our families, I feel that would solve a lot of these issues for both sides of these vegan vs omnivore discussions.
Completely agree. The optimal approach in my opinion would be to reduce the impact of farming in general, but at the same time not see animals as commodities. Also, even if I would view hunting as a viable way of reducing suffering (which one can argue from a utilitarian standpoint, but I personally don’t for other reasons), we cannot sustain our population on hunting alone. Similarly I think we can’t have a functioning society like we do today with only small scale food production. We would need to either make bigger changes in the societal structure (not very likely), or we need to optimise farming with regards to environmental impact and “collateral damage” (more likely, but still difficult).
What does the world do with domesticated animals if there is no longer a need for them?
This is a hypothetical non-issue in my honest opinion. There is no likely scenario where the entire planet would turn vegan over night. Also, it is not an argument for continuing breeding animals into suffering and death. If anything it is an argument for stopping all of it after this generation of farm animals.
Also, my personal view (even if perhaps not all vegans agree) is to be non-interventionistic. I.e. I don’t think we are gods (like some other commenter said here before) who have a responsibility of maintaining nature at some arbitrary point that we think is the desired status quo. I simply think we should not unnecessarily cause harm, suffering, and death in our daily lives. As far as practicable and possible of course.
Raising livestock isn’t cheap or easy, but if it’s not a viable commercial product, who will invest that time and energy into them?
Two things. First, virtually all animal food industry today is heavily subsidised and it would not exist without those subsidies. Second, I don’t think we should breed animals into existence just so that they can exist. This is also another opinion that is perhaps not too common amongst all vegans, and it is a bit of a tangent. But I am somewhat of an anti-natalist, both with human and non-human animals. No one can suffer if they haven’t lived. And there is no reason to making beings exist just for the sake of existing. And if that existence is prolonged suffering ending with execution, it does not make sense to say that it is justified.
That owl article was interesting! But I think it is quite absurd in a way that we have fucked up nature so much that we think we should kill a bunch of animals as an attempt to unfuck it.
I hope you felt I’ve been respectful and genuine with you.
You have been very respectful, it is very rare to meet someone online with such a respectful and understanding tone when you are discussing differing opinions! I hope I haven’t been too preachy, I also just want you to understand my view.
I can highly recommend this video by Ed Winters. I agree with a lot of his opinions, and he is much more well-spoken and good at explaining arguments than I am.
You have been very awesome in this, and I feel this type of interaction is much more constructive and productive than a lot of what has gone on in a lot of these other comments. In talking with some other more angry vegans in the past, I get it’s tiring to take the effort making responses that are really involved like this only to find out the non-vegan taking to you was being disingenuous the whole time or looking to try to catch you doing something non-vegan or whatever stupid point they’re trying to make. But I’m glad we took a chance talking to each other. It’s hard to sit here and type everything out, and I wish more in person conversations went this way.
We mostly align in the utlitiarian aspects (I’m not really utilitarian, but I’ll get to that), but we differ in the aspect of commodification.
I think this is a fair assessment. It’s a bit more nuanced for me, but that I feel is pretty fair for your average person. Most people are removed from farm type animals in their daily lives and don’t really make that connection that a hamburger was once chilling in the sun eating grass having a great time. I do think about that though, and it’s what has led to me trending your direction food-wise.
We cannot sustain our population on hunting alone.
Absolutely. Human population didn’t take off until we learned to become farmers. It’s what made us civilized in a literal and modern sense. And with the whole energy pyramid it definitely makes the most sense. I love the developments going on with genetically altered grains that provide better vitam it n content and the tech bringing us lab synthesized proteins that capture the textures and sometimes tastes of meat and can’t wait for them to scale. I probably love the taste of Beyond more than any meat. It is just way too expensive still, and could stand to be a bit healthier. If price and nutrition parity was there, you’d have me vegan instantly.
There is no likely scenario where the entire planet would turn vegan over night. Also, it is not an argument for continuing breeding animals into suffering and death.
Yes, it’s more a thought experiment I give myself. Not intended to be a straw man argument but it could be seen and probably is used by many in that way.
As for interventionism, we could argue that we don’t know enough and just make matters worse. There are definitely real life cases of that. But I do feel we as a whole should be stewards of our planet. We did make most of these problems and should try to fix them, but many will likely take hundreds of years or more to fix realistically.
Second, I don’t think we should breed animals into existence just so that they can exist.
That is a lot of the root of my feelings of personal and societal responsibility. It’s too late to not do these things, and I feel the just thing to do is own our actions and to do what we can for the world we’ve created. Nothing wrong with your opinions on that though.
I’ll be sure to check out Ed Winters. I’m always looking to get a fresh perspective on things and grow as a person.
Thank you again for taking this time with me. More people should do the same. I feel a great respect for you and your beliefs. You’re definitely someone I would enjoy having regular friendly chats with.
Because humans are powerful enough that we are a bit like gods, and we have to make these choices between which lives we keep and which lives we kill.
Is it ethical to allow the hunting of African game if that money funds the conservation of many more animals? We have to make that trade off. Ethics are subjective, and I’m firmly on the side of allowing hunting as are many other people.
In New Zealand, as with other isolated islands, there’s a unique population of indigenous birds that are now being massacred by introduced mammals. Is it ethical to hunt and trap and poison the introduced pests to save the indigenous birds. We have to make that choice.
A runaway trolley is going to kill 5 humans unless you switch it to another track where it will only kill 1 human. Is that ethical?
A politician could choose to lower the speed limit of a road to 10 km/h, saving lives but costing the economy, quality of life, and future election wins. Is that ethical?
I see only humans as sentient so no question of ethics there. Though sentience by itself isn’t sufficient unless you have a very shallow sense of ethics. For example self-defense can involve taking a being’s life against it’s will. But that in no way suggests the action was unethical.
I don’t totally disagree with you, if that means anything. I don’t get any personal satisfaction from it, but I don’t feel bad about it either. Animals eat animals.
People can choose to not eat animal products, and I can admire that. I try to progressively reduce my use of them too. But we’re both doing things to actively try to do something better for the world and ourselves, which is more than many will bother to do. Even if we don’t agree on some things, we’re both doing what we feel is making a better and informed choice. You don’t have to agree with me, but I don’t feel there’s either side that can claim a moral superiority based solely on what’s on our plates. I’m sure you could find someone who’d claim they’re “more vegan” then you or some other gatekeeping nonsense like that.
I disagree. There is a morally correct choice here. Animals feel pain, experience grief, play and form bonds. They don’t exist as some sort of resource, but people think of them as such. To willingly inflict suffering and pain on these creatures is wrong. Full stop.
Again, I don’t disagree with you. But no food supply chain has zero cost to animals. Land is cleared to farm. “Pest animals” and insects are killed to protect yields. Animals are killed or burned by pesticides, rodenticides, and fertilizers. More animals and insects killed at storage facilities. Pollution from transport. Waste from scrapping “ugly” produce. There is still a cost, and you can’t quantify what it is.
I get about 2/3 of my annual meat from a single deer, with no waste, no pollution, and no further cost to the environment and it leaves more food through the winter for the other deer. During the rest of the year, I supply them with essential mineral supplements so they stay healthy.
If you want to judge my decisions, you’re free to. But to think you still don’t require any sacrifice from animals is a bit naive, and if you have a pet, I find that mildly hypocritical. But you do you. We’re allowed to be different and have different values and beliefs. I’m not here to force mine on you or anyone else.
But we should probably leave this chat here. We’re kinda off topic, and I dont want us to get mad with each other. Keep doing your best.
But that single deer didn’t need to die. That’s my point. You don’t have to eat meat. That deer has just as much right to live as any human. You keep using mass suffering as justification to kill that one deer as “better” but it isn’t.
No attempt at justification, it’s accepting my biological footprint and having a personal understanding and a decision on what e cost of it is. We both have one. But you can’t say for sure the cost in animal lives of your choices.
You can downvote this like the other respectful comments I’ve given you, but it doesn’t change the blind eye you’re turning on the fact that your food still has a cost of life, you just hand those responsibilities off to someone else. I don’t feel like you’re open for discourse on this, so I’m going to politely disengage with you now. I’m sorry we couldn’t find any common ground, because we both spend more time thinking about these things than the majority of people ever will.
I get the whole ‘respect’ schtick probably gives you an easy out for arguments like this. It also probably makes you feel like your opinions have the same importance or weight as anyone else’s, but you hunt. You hunt and don’t need to. Any kind of explanation or discussion of balance etc is negated by the fact you hunt.
You are right though. I’m not open to discussion because you’re objectively wrong.
The example I’m thinking of is New Zealand, where there’s endless studies into causes of erosion most of which mention the introduction of grazing game animals(e.g. deer) as a contributing factor.
deforestation and overgrazing by livestock and
introduced game animal
By the 1930’s the deer population in New Zealand was out of control and causing serious environmental damage through grazing, severe soil erosion and slips from the thousands of hooves ripping up the ground
For one it realy is something that depends on the global and local region. There are multiple studies that point to a lack of evidence towards a clear answer. I’m not invested enoth to hunt down to many examples, so I’ll just quote this 2016 Australien study:
Public lands in Australia are increasingly being made available to recreational hunters to take introduced mammals such as wild pigs, goats, deer and canids. These species can cause substantial damage to environmental or agricultural assets, and it has often been argued that recreational hunting contributes to the amelioration of these impacts by reducing pest population densities. This position has been vigorously disputed by some parties. However, there is little locally-relevant evidence to support either side of the debate, and hence little evidence on which to base useful policy.
Even clearly pro hunting websites have liste of pros and cons to hunting as pest control, like this one
Obviously it depends on region. It also depends on the species in question. No one thinks hunting rhinos is pest control.
That doesnt change the fact that in areas where we have removed or reduced predator populations, replacement hunting does show to help fill the gap and keep prey populations within healthy limits.
Look at the american deer conundrum as your prime example. When we stop hunting them in areas low in predation, they start destroying their already fragile ecosystems with overgrazing.
You are shifting the goalposts here. I argued against hunting beeing, and I quote:
Its pretty proven at a 5th grade reading level of study, and even more proven with every grade up.
Its actually kind if hard to find a more proven aspect of biology.
You are the one who claimed that it’s 1000 % proven that hunting is good pest control. Which is not true.
I didn’t argue against it beeing efficient in some locations. I argued against it beeing “hard to find a more proven aspect of biology” that it is so.
So either show me some scientific backup or admit that you might have been a bit of there (it happens to the best of us, no big deal).
That doesnt change the fact that in areas where we have removed or reduced predator populations, replacement hunting does show to help fill the gap and keep prey populations within healthy limits.
Please read the study I posted earlier, which shows how this is not universaly true, or, as I have said before, at the very least controversal.
Look at the american deer conundrum as your prime example. When we stop hunting them in areas low in predation, they start destroying their already fragile ecosystems with overgrazing.
Regarding this i would like to direct you to this study:
Specifically, recreational hunting was unable to decrease deer densities sufficiently to protect growth of the majority of Q. rubra seedlings, as reported elsewhere (Bengsen & Sparkes, 2016; Blossey et al., 2017; Simard, Dussault, Huot, & Cote, 2013; Williams et al., 2013). This inability of woody species to transition from seedlings to saplings over much of the eastern US, and not just of palatable species (Kelly, 2019; Miller & McGill, 2019), occurs in a region where recreational hunting is widespread, ubiquitous, and accepted by the vast majority of citizens (Brown, Decker, & Kelley, 1984; Decker, Stedman, Larson, & Siemer, 2015). Some authors claim that hunting can reduce deer browse pressure on herbaceous and woody species, but browse reductions were either small (Hothorn & Müller, 2010), or we lack information about differences in hunting pressure in reference areas that also saw improvements in woody and herbaceous plant performance (Jenkins, Jenkins, Webster, Zollner, & Shields, 2014; Jenkins, Murray, Jenkins, & Webster, 2015). We therefore need to reject claims by wildlife management agencies that recreational hunting is sufficient to allow forest regeneration and can protect biodiversity (NYSDEC, 2011; Rogerson, 2010).
To be fair, they are talking about hunting beeing the only method used here and also can’t find prove, that other measures (like only protecting the plants) and no hunting are enoth. There just is not enoth clear data to support either side right now. Hence its controversal.
No it isn’t. This is the noble excuse hunters came up with to justify murder.
Nature has this funny way of balancing itself out. Humans are unique in that we somehow view ourselves as above that rule. But as you’ll see in the coming years we’re at the mercy of that equilibrium.
I mean, if there has been a forest somewhere for the last 100 years, chances are there are enough carnivores anyways. Nature finds its balance, hunting only adds chaos to the equation.
Wolves had been extinct in western Europe for hundreds of years, only slowly spreading again after the fall of the Iron Curtain 30-something years ago. And, consequently, the hunting quotas for deer are being lowered.
The chaos caused by eliminating wolves is slowly getting back to balance.
By the way: a 100 year old forest is in its early childhood. Hasn’t even reached puberty yet.
I don’t think we’re beyond nature, but as it stands we certainly aren’t acting within it. We aren’t cavemen. We don’t have to hunt our food. We know the impact we have on nature, and more importantly how to lessen that impact.
I appreciate where the author of this article is coming from, but I think they’re being a bit too one-sided.
For example, they make the point that zoos don’t contribute enough to conservation, donating only around 5% of their spending, as if the millions of dollars given doesn’t justify their existence. But if zoos didn’t exist, that’s a big chunk of money that wouldn’t be going towards conservation at all.
They also talk about the education aspect, that visitors don’t necessarily read the information about the animals and instead go for the spectacle. But a child isn’t going to read those plaques regardless, but seeing animals up close might ignite an interest in conservation later in life.
And one thing that the article doesn’t really go into is the fact that humans are still actively hunting animals in the wild, and destroying habitats for profit. And while I think zoos are a bit of a band-aid fix when it comes to endangered species, I’d much rather see an animal in captivity surrounded by zookeepers that care about it rather than extinction.
In an ideal world, zoos wouldn’t exist. In a slightly less ideal world, only open-plain zoos would exist. But we are a very long way from that, and I personally believe that reputable zoos are a positive in the world we currently live in.
Hunting also needs to be looked at objectively. Many people hunt, and for many different reasons.
Poor people will hunt because it’s is free food. Some risk they’re lives to do it. Some places like Tanzania will kill poachers. We need to look into removing that incentive, as in, we need to reduce global poverty.
I hunt because one deer will be most of my meat for a year. The price to have someone else cut it up makes it cost the same as cheap grocery store ground beef, but it tastes better and is much more eco friendly than that cute would have been.
Rich people BS hunting like I imagine you’re referring to is BS, but they pay big money to do it. The money they spend on that one animal funds the preservation of many times more animals, and by having a legal process to do it, there is less incentive to do it illegally, where accurate counts of animals taken can’t be done.
The first example I can think of showing the success of this is the American Alligator. They were almost wiped out, but now they flourish because people want to hunt and/or eat them. I think it’s something like 10 are raised fire every one that is allowed to be hunted. I’ll admit, it’s a bit like strange logic at first, but there are success stories to show it works.
I love animals. I even take care of the spiders at my house the best I can. But I hunt ethically as possible, just one legal deer a year. That deer lived a better life than a feed lot cow, didn’t need to clear cut or pollute land to live, and it was appreciated for it’s sacrifice every day by me, and I do my best to not waste a scrap of that meat, because I had to do the hard part myself.
I’ve met unethical hunters, and I won’t associate with them. They’re trash like any other cruel person. But most are regular people.
Unrelated: How do you conserve a whole deer for an entire year? You freeze the crap out of it? lol
We drop them off at a beef farm for processing. They pack it up all nice like you’d get it from a butcher shop, mainly in pound size packaging. We get from 60 to 80 pounds typically. Then it goes in the freezer.
You can also donate them to the poor through the Game Commission I think. It’s our family’s primary source of meat though. I just empty my freezer by Thanksgiving and it have room for it all. I occasionally find some that’s from the last season and it’s still always been fine.
Here’s one pack of ground meat from last year I still have. We also got jerky sticks, sausage, and stew cubes and loins. They’re just wrapped in butchers paper.
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How can it be ethical to take a sentient being’s life against its will? If it lived a good life it is even worse to end it.
I don’t totally disagree with you. Many animals from bugs to mice and birds are killed in the process of farming and the delivery of those goods to market.
If I hunt a deer, I can tell you exactly what my environmental cost was, exactly one deer. It’s not something I’m proud of, it’s just getting food for my home. I’m very grateful to it, and appropriate the sacrifice I asked of it.
You don’t have to agree with me on that. If you don’t use any animal products, I appreciate your decision. But no supply chain is free of environmental cost, and I think it’s fair to ask you to keep that in mind too.
It is true that all food production causes harm, death, and suffering.
The way I see it suffering and death of sentient beings should be minimised as much as practicable and possible.
More plants are needed to produce meat (as feed) than to produce plant based food directly. So even if crop production kills mice etc it is more ethical to eat plants than to eat produced meat.
Hunting is definitely better than factory farming in that regard. However, it is still taking a sentient life against its will. And it is not necessary.
Moreover, the purpose of producing plant based food is not to willfully breed animals into a life of suffering and death. Deaths as a result of crop production is not the goal of crop production. It is a side effect that we can minimise.
I wasn’t going to talk in this thread any more because it typically devolves into what most of the rest of this comment section looks like with stubborness from both sides, but you seem to be quite reasonable. Please understand I’m going to talk to you in good faith, with an open mind, and I have to desire to stir things up or make fun of you or anything. I like to discuss these things, but it feels very difficult to find people with nuance, especially online. But I hope we can have a polite discussion.
Absolutely agree with you. I think anyone who doesn’t feel this way is someone I don’t want to associate with.
Yup, this is well established scientific fact.
As a non-vegan, this is one place I get kinda confused trying to see things from your point of view. Like I told the other guy, if I hunt 1 deer, I know I only hurt a single organism. I dont get any thrill out of it, I basically see it as part of Mother Nature’s grocery store. It’s a chore I don’t hate, but I see it more like a job than a hobby.
But nobody can measure what the true eco impact of modern massive farming is. Even the best consumer will never know where most of their food came from. We can’t tell what land damage was done, what species were impacted by how much, how much chemicals were used and what kinds, etc. Mechanized farming mows down anything in its path. Rabbits, moles, voles, birds, snakes, frogs, salamanders, racoons, possums, etc. The chemicals burn animal’s feet and kill our pollinators and spiders, runoff kills fish and other aquatic animals. I like a lot of animals people don’t typically like. Slimey ones, scaly ones, creepy crawlies, and so on. So why is hurting a mystery number of miscellaneous things automatically less bad? My issue is Big Ag and the systems that support it, not the vegans and vegetarians. We all eat, and there is a cost of lives no matter what we eat. But as I said, I can say my cost was one single thing. I’m fully aware of it, but I am thankful and respectful as I can possibly be for it. I just feel neither of us can make a claim of moral superiority over the other because we don’t have both sides of the equation to balance it out.
Again, I feel we’re both in agreement modern mass farming is our real opponent, not each other. If we all had personal garden plots that fed our families, I feel that would solve a lot of these issues for both sides of these vegan vs omnivore discussions. We’ve gotten away from that kind of life as a society, and I don’t think that was one of mankind’s best decisions. Those like us that try to source the least destructive meals possible put a lot of trust into who we get food from.
I primarily eat grains and beans/lentils. I love the heck out of nearly all grains. I got some killer recipes for beans and lentils. I love tofu and seitan and falafel and Beyond burgers and sausages. But I also love paneer and butter and honey and yes, meat and seafood. I also think for some purposes, wool or leather are the best available materials to make certain things out of. If something else was better, I’d pick that first. But I try to keep learning about new synthetic materials and finding recipes that don’t always call for animal products. I use much less now than how I was raised. What I do use, I try my best to get this from more responsible sources. I don’t want to cause any unnecessary harm.
What does the world do with domesticated animals if there is no longer a need for them? They can’t live on their own anymore (except pigs, those are some terrifying creatures given the right circumstances) so so we just let them eventually die out? It seems odd and irresponsible that we’ve turned them into what they are, but we’d let them fade away. Raising livestock isn’t cheap or easy, but if it’s not a viable commercial product, who will invest that time and energy into them? And in addition to the cows and chickens and all that, why are domestic dogs and cats ok? I’ve had many pets, but after losing my last hound dog, I just can’t deal with losing another domestic animal. I don’t feel pets are right anymore. I’m not judging other people if they do have pets, but it feels like you guys are against keeping other animals in those kinds of situations, so why are pets different? I just stick to watching the animals in my backyard now. I’ll toss them some peanuts, which I know isn’t supposed to be good for them either, but they like them, and they’re free to do as they please.
I saved this for last because to a certain extent I agree. From a food standpoint, I agree with you. I could give up all animal protein and be fine, as could near anyone else. But from a conservation perspective, I am going to politely disagree, and I feel killing a well regulated number of wild animals is a necessity.
People have done a number on this planet in so many ways. We’ve screwed with every ecosystem from North to South Pole and the balance that is supposed to exists does not. I’m only going to touch on the 2 animals in most familiar with two keep from spouting BS.
Deer populations do get out of hand very quickly. If you aren’t from the country and see them as majestic creatures, you have not seen how destructive large numbers of deer can be. From crop damage to landscape destruction, to just plain getting hit by cars, unregulated deer populations are not a joke.
Hunting is managed by a number of agencies. They don’t just say ok fellas, start shooting. They study all the animals all year long, determine how the populations should be adjusted, and issue that many licenses. Next year, the will adjust the number depending how their goals were met. It’s well planned by conservationists, not some Elmer Fudd free for all. People are paying to do a government job, and that money goes into more environmental programs. Some killing is done, but it’s to make a greater good for the wildlife as a whole.
The other animal I’ll talk about, which makes me very sad because it is illegal to possess any part of it, so there’s not even an upside to killing them, is owls. What people have done to old growth forests is a nightmare for a lot of species. Old trees CANNOT be replaced by new ones. That is a whole other topic.
Thousands of Barred Owls are killed by wildlife agencies every year for the last few decades. Barred Owls are amazing and beautiful creatures. But they also kill other owls. Environmental destruction has pushed them into places they didn’t used to be, and they are killing off very endangered owl species.
NPR: To Save Threatened Owl, Another Species Is Shot
This article really is captures the dilemma conservationists face. There is no other practical way to stop invasive species. They’ve tried it all. I love all the animals, but owls are one of my favorites. Check my posts, I post about owls and their protection literally every day. But we need to kill some to try to undo the mess we’ve made of our planet. I hope to heck someday that isn’t true, but it is right now.
Well, this was way more than I intended to write, but I’m kinda stressed out today and it seems this helped me work some of my anxiety out. I hope you felt I’ve been respectful and genuine with you. I could talk about this stuff all day, I’m very passionate about it. Like everything else related to people, there’s miles of grey area, and compromises to be made from all perspectives. By thinking critically about the choices we make, we’re both working to be more responsible members of this place we share with our fellow creatures.
We won’t always see eye to eye, and that’s ok. I’ll keep working to understand your point of view, and even if you will never agree on hunting, I hope you read that owl article and can take something away from that about the heavy responsibility that comes with protecting animals. It doesn’t sound like a role you would want to play personally, and I respect that. But I hope you can see that it’s a responsibility I have chosen to accept. I do feel it’s for a greater good.
If you think I’m full of it, you’re welcome to think that, I just ask if that’s how you feel, let’s just both drop this conversation. But I hope I helped you understand a different viewpoint at least a little, and if you want to talk about anything more, we can.
I first have to say that I really appreciate your tone and your thought out arguments. Most of these types of discussions tend to devolve into non-constructive obstinacy.
And this particular area is a very grey and complex one, so I admit it is not completely black or white for me. And these are big issues that we humans honestly will most likely not solve in any way that either of us would be happy with.
I agree with you on many points, like you have pointed out. You seem to be compassionate, empathetic, and rational.
I think this comes into where I believe our disagreement is. We mostly align in the utlitiarian aspects (I’m not really utilitarian, but I’ll get to that), but we differ in the aspect of commodification. I.e. I do not think we should see sentient beings as commodities. For example, I would not eat an animal who died in an accident. I assume, for instance, that you would not eat your dog if it died in a car crash, and I extend that reasoning to other animals as well.
Completely agree. The optimal approach in my opinion would be to reduce the impact of farming in general, but at the same time not see animals as commodities. Also, even if I would view hunting as a viable way of reducing suffering (which one can argue from a utilitarian standpoint, but I personally don’t for other reasons), we cannot sustain our population on hunting alone. Similarly I think we can’t have a functioning society like we do today with only small scale food production. We would need to either make bigger changes in the societal structure (not very likely), or we need to optimise farming with regards to environmental impact and “collateral damage” (more likely, but still difficult).
This is a hypothetical non-issue in my honest opinion. There is no likely scenario where the entire planet would turn vegan over night. Also, it is not an argument for continuing breeding animals into suffering and death. If anything it is an argument for stopping all of it after this generation of farm animals.
Also, my personal view (even if perhaps not all vegans agree) is to be non-interventionistic. I.e. I don’t think we are gods (like some other commenter said here before) who have a responsibility of maintaining nature at some arbitrary point that we think is the desired status quo. I simply think we should not unnecessarily cause harm, suffering, and death in our daily lives. As far as practicable and possible of course.
Two things. First, virtually all animal food industry today is heavily subsidised and it would not exist without those subsidies. Second, I don’t think we should breed animals into existence just so that they can exist. This is also another opinion that is perhaps not too common amongst all vegans, and it is a bit of a tangent. But I am somewhat of an anti-natalist, both with human and non-human animals. No one can suffer if they haven’t lived. And there is no reason to making beings exist just for the sake of existing. And if that existence is prolonged suffering ending with execution, it does not make sense to say that it is justified.
That owl article was interesting! But I think it is quite absurd in a way that we have fucked up nature so much that we think we should kill a bunch of animals as an attempt to unfuck it.
You have been very respectful, it is very rare to meet someone online with such a respectful and understanding tone when you are discussing differing opinions! I hope I haven’t been too preachy, I also just want you to understand my view.
I can highly recommend this video by Ed Winters. I agree with a lot of his opinions, and he is much more well-spoken and good at explaining arguments than I am.
https://youtu.be/Z3u7hXpOm58
You have been very awesome in this, and I feel this type of interaction is much more constructive and productive than a lot of what has gone on in a lot of these other comments. In talking with some other more angry vegans in the past, I get it’s tiring to take the effort making responses that are really involved like this only to find out the non-vegan taking to you was being disingenuous the whole time or looking to try to catch you doing something non-vegan or whatever stupid point they’re trying to make. But I’m glad we took a chance talking to each other. It’s hard to sit here and type everything out, and I wish more in person conversations went this way.
I think this is a fair assessment. It’s a bit more nuanced for me, but that I feel is pretty fair for your average person. Most people are removed from farm type animals in their daily lives and don’t really make that connection that a hamburger was once chilling in the sun eating grass having a great time. I do think about that though, and it’s what has led to me trending your direction food-wise.
Absolutely. Human population didn’t take off until we learned to become farmers. It’s what made us civilized in a literal and modern sense. And with the whole energy pyramid it definitely makes the most sense. I love the developments going on with genetically altered grains that provide better vitam it n content and the tech bringing us lab synthesized proteins that capture the textures and sometimes tastes of meat and can’t wait for them to scale. I probably love the taste of Beyond more than any meat. It is just way too expensive still, and could stand to be a bit healthier. If price and nutrition parity was there, you’d have me vegan instantly.
Yes, it’s more a thought experiment I give myself. Not intended to be a straw man argument but it could be seen and probably is used by many in that way.
As for interventionism, we could argue that we don’t know enough and just make matters worse. There are definitely real life cases of that. But I do feel we as a whole should be stewards of our planet. We did make most of these problems and should try to fix them, but many will likely take hundreds of years or more to fix realistically.
That is a lot of the root of my feelings of personal and societal responsibility. It’s too late to not do these things, and I feel the just thing to do is own our actions and to do what we can for the world we’ve created. Nothing wrong with your opinions on that though.
I’ll be sure to check out Ed Winters. I’m always looking to get a fresh perspective on things and grow as a person.
Thank you again for taking this time with me. More people should do the same. I feel a great respect for you and your beliefs. You’re definitely someone I would enjoy having regular friendly chats with.
Because humans are powerful enough that we are a bit like gods, and we have to make these choices between which lives we keep and which lives we kill.
Is it ethical to allow the hunting of African game if that money funds the conservation of many more animals? We have to make that trade off. Ethics are subjective, and I’m firmly on the side of allowing hunting as are many other people.
In New Zealand, as with other isolated islands, there’s a unique population of indigenous birds that are now being massacred by introduced mammals. Is it ethical to hunt and trap and poison the introduced pests to save the indigenous birds. We have to make that choice.
A runaway trolley is going to kill 5 humans unless you switch it to another track where it will only kill 1 human. Is that ethical?
A politician could choose to lower the speed limit of a road to 10 km/h, saving lives but costing the economy, quality of life, and future election wins. Is that ethical?
Ethics are subjective, but we have to choose.
I see only humans as sentient so no question of ethics there. Though sentience by itself isn’t sufficient unless you have a very shallow sense of ethics. For example self-defense can involve taking a being’s life against it’s will. But that in no way suggests the action was unethical.
Hunting has no place in a modern society. When you can choose and choose to hunt and eat meat, you’re the problem.
I don’t totally disagree with you, if that means anything. I don’t get any personal satisfaction from it, but I don’t feel bad about it either. Animals eat animals.
People can choose to not eat animal products, and I can admire that. I try to progressively reduce my use of them too. But we’re both doing things to actively try to do something better for the world and ourselves, which is more than many will bother to do. Even if we don’t agree on some things, we’re both doing what we feel is making a better and informed choice. You don’t have to agree with me, but I don’t feel there’s either side that can claim a moral superiority based solely on what’s on our plates. I’m sure you could find someone who’d claim they’re “more vegan” then you or some other gatekeeping nonsense like that.
I disagree. There is a morally correct choice here. Animals feel pain, experience grief, play and form bonds. They don’t exist as some sort of resource, but people think of them as such. To willingly inflict suffering and pain on these creatures is wrong. Full stop.
Again, I don’t disagree with you. But no food supply chain has zero cost to animals. Land is cleared to farm. “Pest animals” and insects are killed to protect yields. Animals are killed or burned by pesticides, rodenticides, and fertilizers. More animals and insects killed at storage facilities. Pollution from transport. Waste from scrapping “ugly” produce. There is still a cost, and you can’t quantify what it is.
I get about 2/3 of my annual meat from a single deer, with no waste, no pollution, and no further cost to the environment and it leaves more food through the winter for the other deer. During the rest of the year, I supply them with essential mineral supplements so they stay healthy.
If you want to judge my decisions, you’re free to. But to think you still don’t require any sacrifice from animals is a bit naive, and if you have a pet, I find that mildly hypocritical. But you do you. We’re allowed to be different and have different values and beliefs. I’m not here to force mine on you or anyone else.
But we should probably leave this chat here. We’re kinda off topic, and I dont want us to get mad with each other. Keep doing your best.
But that single deer didn’t need to die. That’s my point. You don’t have to eat meat. That deer has just as much right to live as any human. You keep using mass suffering as justification to kill that one deer as “better” but it isn’t.
No attempt at justification, it’s accepting my biological footprint and having a personal understanding and a decision on what e cost of it is. We both have one. But you can’t say for sure the cost in animal lives of your choices.
You can downvote this like the other respectful comments I’ve given you, but it doesn’t change the blind eye you’re turning on the fact that your food still has a cost of life, you just hand those responsibilities off to someone else. I don’t feel like you’re open for discourse on this, so I’m going to politely disengage with you now. I’m sorry we couldn’t find any common ground, because we both spend more time thinking about these things than the majority of people ever will.
I get the whole ‘respect’ schtick probably gives you an easy out for arguments like this. It also probably makes you feel like your opinions have the same importance or weight as anyone else’s, but you hunt. You hunt and don’t need to. Any kind of explanation or discussion of balance etc is negated by the fact you hunt.
You are right though. I’m not open to discussion because you’re objectively wrong.
That’s only true if there are enough carnivores like wolves and bears around. If not: goodbye forests. Hunting is pest control.
This is not proven at all. It’s at best controversal.
It’s very much proven in some ecosystems where humans introduced new animals, which ate all the plants and caused tons of new erosion.
Show me a study tust proves it then please.
The example I’m thinking of is New Zealand, where there’s endless studies into causes of erosion most of which mention the introduction of grazing game animals(e.g. deer) as a contributing factor.
https://doi.org/10.1002/ldr.3400060202
https://www.mpi.govt.nz/dmsdocument/81/direct
https://www.rnz.co.nz/programmes/deer-wars/story/2018906408/e01-the-last-great-adventure
Its pretty proven at a 5th grade reading level of study, and even more proven with every grade up.
Its actually kind if hard to find a more proven aspect of biology.
You are confidentaly wrong here, my friend.
For one it realy is something that depends on the global and local region. There are multiple studies that point to a lack of evidence towards a clear answer. I’m not invested enoth to hunt down to many examples, so I’ll just quote this 2016 Australien study:
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/305655680_Can_recreational_hunting_control_pests_on_public_lands
Even clearly pro hunting websites have liste of pros and cons to hunting as pest control, like this one
https://huntingandnature.com/index.php/2023/09/04/hunting-as-a-form-of-pest-control-pros-and-cons/
So no. It is not a clear cut matter, nor is it proven beyond any doubt.
Obviously it depends on region. It also depends on the species in question. No one thinks hunting rhinos is pest control.
That doesnt change the fact that in areas where we have removed or reduced predator populations, replacement hunting does show to help fill the gap and keep prey populations within healthy limits.
Look at the american deer conundrum as your prime example. When we stop hunting them in areas low in predation, they start destroying their already fragile ecosystems with overgrazing.
You are shifting the goalposts here. I argued against hunting beeing, and I quote:
You are the one who claimed that it’s 1000 % proven that hunting is good pest control. Which is not true.
I didn’t argue against it beeing efficient in some locations. I argued against it beeing “hard to find a more proven aspect of biology” that it is so.
So either show me some scientific backup or admit that you might have been a bit of there (it happens to the best of us, no big deal).
Please read the study I posted earlier, which shows how this is not universaly true, or, as I have said before, at the very least controversal.
Regarding this i would like to direct you to this study:
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/ece3.5729
To be fair, they are talking about hunting beeing the only method used here and also can’t find prove, that other measures (like only protecting the plants) and no hunting are enoth. There just is not enoth clear data to support either side right now. Hence its controversal.
No it isn’t. This is the noble excuse hunters came up with to justify murder.
Nature has this funny way of balancing itself out. Humans are unique in that we somehow view ourselves as above that rule. But as you’ll see in the coming years we’re at the mercy of that equilibrium.
Right, all those noble ecologists who spent decades studying this just decided to fake their results cause they get so horny over killing.
Nature balances out over a couple thousand years. What you are asking for is to speed up the current extinction event.
Do you hunt?
No, I just have spent my whole career studying ecology.
How long of a career is that again?
I mean, if there has been a forest somewhere for the last 100 years, chances are there are enough carnivores anyways. Nature finds its balance, hunting only adds chaos to the equation.
Wolves had been extinct in western Europe for hundreds of years, only slowly spreading again after the fall of the Iron Curtain 30-something years ago. And, consequently, the hunting quotas for deer are being lowered.
The chaos caused by eliminating wolves is slowly getting back to balance.
By the way: a 100 year old forest is in its early childhood. Hasn’t even reached puberty yet.
You really need to go outside more. Modern society isnt some state of transcendance beyond nature.
I don’t think we’re beyond nature, but as it stands we certainly aren’t acting within it. We aren’t cavemen. We don’t have to hunt our food. We know the impact we have on nature, and more importantly how to lessen that impact.
We are nature. You need to stop pretending we are magically no longer living things just because you realized other living things are also alive.
What? Is reading comprehension a struggle for you? I know we’re naturally occurring. I’m not even sure what you’re getting at.
You claim you know, and then immediately contradict yourself. Not something someone does when they actually understand what theyre saying.