Sorry if this is a stupid question, but have you looked at secondhand phones? Some of the deGoogled Android ROMs still offer support for old models and if you shop around you can find one in basically new condition (excluding battery degradation). Buying secondhand also ties in with your ethical concerns.
That is very true, and I have actually bought used before but it was a miserable experience because it wasn’t listed as carrier-locked (it was, however, a long time ago, well before carrier unlock was required/universal unlock was commonly available).
Perhaps I’ll look into getting a used phone while I have a working one and play with it a bit, if I can find one for a reasonable price, as long as they don’t have the same replacement lockout apple has. I’ve been using GSM carriers exclusively so I can bring my device if I ever (need to or can) emigrate, so probably a decent market of devices available.
Not a stupid question and thanks for reminding me that’s an option. I tend to distrust used/refurbished tech -replaced for a reason sort of thing, especially when warranty replacements of major models tend to be refurbished and have their own problems… but I probably shouldn’t assume others treat their tech the way I do - my forever precious. Like cars, I run them until they die, and someday I’ll make a fucking sculpture with all the broken old phones I have. I recently found my first semi-smart phone, which I had when I was… 22-24, I think? The Motorola rival A455 in purple. Fuck was technology pretty!
I tend to distrust used/refurbished tech -replaced for a reason sort of thing
I would never buy refurbished unless it was the only option. You basically paying extra for someone to repair a broken phone (possibly with inferior parts) at that point, whereas used you can find phones that have babied by their owners with a case and screen protector and have nothing wrong with them. In Australia, most newer used phones are being replaced due to an upgrade because the owner reached the end of their plan and can essentially move to a newer phone for “free”, or because they damaged something like the screen and they’d rather buy a new phone than repair their current one. With the latter, the cosmetic damage is usually clearly visible and described by the seller and is therefore easy to avoid. For older models, it’s usually just a normal upgrade.
Water damage used to be a bigger risk with secondhand phones, but these days so many have decent waterproofing that it is practically a non-issue. In terms of just general risk, used phones are really low in my opinion. I think people are a little too obsessed with warranties and have this doomsday scenario in their head where they buy a used phone and it just instantly dies. It’s just not realistic at all, phones will last a very long time as long as they aren’t exposed to extreme conditions. Just be patient, be smart and research the phone and the seller thoroughly before buying and you basically can’t go wrong. People are really sleeping on used phones, and electronics more generally. They are great value and a much better choice ethically.
EDIT: That’s a sick looking phone by the way, I wish there were more made with that type of colour scheme.
Thank you for the detailed reply, and that’s actually something I hadn’t really considered. I know I baby the fuck out of my phone, so I’d probably be one of those people 😁 but also phones themselves have gotten a lot more durable and harder to break.
And that’s a good point that in other countries, unlocked gsm phones are just the norm even with regular upgrade plans, where here (Midwest us) it’s kinda hard to find because a lot of the larger carriers are CDMA, so my standard experience is just different. I haven’t really looked too much other than refurbished, and those aren’t cheap-er enough to be worth it, but I’ll take a look.
Technically you’re correct but it really depends on the user’s threat model as to whether this is actually an issue. The remote risk to an unlocked bootloader is very low, so it’s only really an issue if someone actually physically has the phone. The average thief is not going to have the skills, knowledge or even the interest to actually exploit the phone in this way.
They are both potential problems. As I said, it depends on the user whether they are significant concerns. Around half the Android userbase is stuck on 10 or lower, presumably on older devices that haven’t had firmware updates for years. Theoretically there is a risk, but there is no evidence to suggest the likelihood is anything other than very low.
Unless I’m mistaken, there have been firmware RCE vulnerabilities that give successful attackers unrestricted access to the entire system and can be attacked by anyone capable of sending network packets to it. That is not “very low”. That’s insecure to the point that “your” phone is basically the property of some overseas crime ring and they’re letting you borrow it.
Unless you have some evidence that half of the Android userbase is using devices that are “basically the property of some overseas crime ring”, I am going to assume this is just hysteria on your part. Please read the definition of “likelihood” while you’re at it.
I do indeed: the Android Security Bulletins. Bear in mind that most people don’t install a custom operating system after the stock OS stops receiving updates.
Even for those who do, however, those vulnerabilities listed under a heading like “Qualcomm closed-source components”—that is, firmware vulnerabilities—are still present on their devices. See, for example, this list of firmware vulnerabilities fixed in an update as of December 2019. If you have a device that stopped receiving updates before then, it still suffers from those vulnerabilities no matter what OS you run on it, and many of them are RCEs that give successful attackers complete control of the device.
As for “likelihood”, infosec does not work that way. Cybercriminals and hostile foreign intelligence agencies don’t sleep and don’t show mercy. If you have a vulnerability that your adversaries know about and can feasibly exploit, then they are already exploiting it. That’s why vulnerability disclosure embargoes are a thing.
Was there something specific in there that actually backed up your claim? A link to a generic landing page is not what I was asking for. As I have said repeatedly, I do not deny that there are exploits which are theoretically feasible and have been carried out on some scale. What I am asking for is evidence that every old Android device has already been compromised (your claim) and/or for data that proves this is a widespread issue.
Sorry if this is a stupid question, but have you looked at secondhand phones? Some of the deGoogled Android ROMs still offer support for old models and if you shop around you can find one in basically new condition (excluding battery degradation). Buying secondhand also ties in with your ethical concerns.
That is very true, and I have actually bought used before but it was a miserable experience because it wasn’t listed as carrier-locked (it was, however, a long time ago, well before carrier unlock was required/universal unlock was commonly available).
Perhaps I’ll look into getting a used phone while I have a working one and play with it a bit, if I can find one for a reasonable price, as long as they don’t have the same replacement lockout apple has. I’ve been using GSM carriers exclusively so I can bring my device if I ever (need to or can) emigrate, so probably a decent market of devices available.
Not a stupid question and thanks for reminding me that’s an option. I tend to distrust used/refurbished tech -replaced for a reason sort of thing, especially when warranty replacements of major models tend to be refurbished and have their own problems… but I probably shouldn’t assume others treat their tech the way I do - my forever precious. Like cars, I run them until they die, and someday I’ll make a fucking sculpture with all the broken old phones I have. I recently found my first semi-smart phone, which I had when I was… 22-24, I think? The Motorola rival A455 in purple. Fuck was technology pretty!
https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=motorola+a455+purple&form=HDRSC3&pc=MOZW&first=1
I would never buy refurbished unless it was the only option. You basically paying extra for someone to repair a broken phone (possibly with inferior parts) at that point, whereas used you can find phones that have babied by their owners with a case and screen protector and have nothing wrong with them. In Australia, most newer used phones are being replaced due to an upgrade because the owner reached the end of their plan and can essentially move to a newer phone for “free”, or because they damaged something like the screen and they’d rather buy a new phone than repair their current one. With the latter, the cosmetic damage is usually clearly visible and described by the seller and is therefore easy to avoid. For older models, it’s usually just a normal upgrade.
Water damage used to be a bigger risk with secondhand phones, but these days so many have decent waterproofing that it is practically a non-issue. In terms of just general risk, used phones are really low in my opinion. I think people are a little too obsessed with warranties and have this doomsday scenario in their head where they buy a used phone and it just instantly dies. It’s just not realistic at all, phones will last a very long time as long as they aren’t exposed to extreme conditions. Just be patient, be smart and research the phone and the seller thoroughly before buying and you basically can’t go wrong. People are really sleeping on used phones, and electronics more generally. They are great value and a much better choice ethically.
EDIT: That’s a sick looking phone by the way, I wish there were more made with that type of colour scheme.
Thank you for the detailed reply, and that’s actually something I hadn’t really considered. I know I baby the fuck out of my phone, so I’d probably be one of those people 😁 but also phones themselves have gotten a lot more durable and harder to break.
And that’s a good point that in other countries, unlocked gsm phones are just the norm even with regular upgrade plans, where here (Midwest us) it’s kinda hard to find because a lot of the larger carriers are CDMA, so my standard experience is just different. I haven’t really looked too much other than refurbished, and those aren’t cheap-er enough to be worth it, but I’ll take a look.
Buying a secondhand phone also gives you an insecure phone. That’s why GrapheneOS doesn’t support old phones.
Technically you’re correct but it really depends on the user’s threat model as to whether this is actually an issue. The remote risk to an unlocked bootloader is very low, so it’s only really an issue if someone actually physically has the phone. The average thief is not going to have the skills, knowledge or even the interest to actually exploit the phone in this way.
That’s not the problem. Remotely exploitable firmware vulnerabilities, for which no patch will ever be available, are the problem.
They are both potential problems. As I said, it depends on the user whether they are significant concerns. Around half the Android userbase is stuck on 10 or lower, presumably on older devices that haven’t had firmware updates for years. Theoretically there is a risk, but there is no evidence to suggest the likelihood is anything other than very low.
Unless I’m mistaken, there have been firmware RCE vulnerabilities that give successful attackers unrestricted access to the entire system and can be attacked by anyone capable of sending network packets to it. That is not “very low”. That’s insecure to the point that “your” phone is basically the property of some overseas crime ring and they’re letting you borrow it.
Unless you have some evidence that half of the Android userbase is using devices that are “basically the property of some overseas crime ring”, I am going to assume this is just hysteria on your part. Please read the definition of “likelihood” while you’re at it.
I do indeed: the Android Security Bulletins. Bear in mind that most people don’t install a custom operating system after the stock OS stops receiving updates.
Even for those who do, however, those vulnerabilities listed under a heading like “Qualcomm closed-source components”—that is, firmware vulnerabilities—are still present on their devices. See, for example, this list of firmware vulnerabilities fixed in an update as of December 2019. If you have a device that stopped receiving updates before then, it still suffers from those vulnerabilities no matter what OS you run on it, and many of them are RCEs that give successful attackers complete control of the device.
As for “likelihood”, infosec does not work that way. Cybercriminals and hostile foreign intelligence agencies don’t sleep and don’t show mercy. If you have a vulnerability that your adversaries know about and can feasibly exploit, then they are already exploiting it. That’s why vulnerability disclosure embargoes are a thing.
Was there something specific in there that actually backed up your claim? A link to a generic landing page is not what I was asking for. As I have said repeatedly, I do not deny that there are exploits which are theoretically feasible and have been carried out on some scale. What I am asking for is evidence that every old Android device has already been compromised (your claim) and/or for data that proves this is a widespread issue.