Important clarification/FAQ
I am not calling to coddle or excuse the behavior of bigoted men in any way!
I am calling to be kind and understanding to young men (often ages 10-20) who are very manipulable and succeptible to the massive anti feminist propaganda machine. Hope this clarifies that very important distinction. :)
Very good comments that express key points:
- Detailed summary of the situation if you’re wondering what’s going on
- The rhetorical value of the bear hypothetical and what this means for you
- One example of why the long-term rhetorical value of the hypothetical is poor, in the context of intersectionality
- What does disenfranchisement mean in this context?
- The importance of not asking women to tone down their expressions of fear and frustration
- “But why can’t they just say it nicely?”
- The importance of participation in kindness toward young men, specifically outside the context of people speaking their experiences
Edit: This post has now been removed and restored twice. I want to encourage you all:
Be decent to one another
I think this post is a valuable thing given the current state of the Fediverse, please don’t fuck it up for us by being toxic in the comments.
nuance:
Hopefully people see this and stop posting ragebait 🙏
we need a nuance posting rule on the internet i think.
For every sensational shitpost you must provide at least one nuance.
honestly i would smash the subscribe button so hard on a c/nuanceposting community. verbose and carefully worded memes are my absolute jam. 😎🙂↕️
eudaimonia on dbzer0 has what is essentially the spiritual precedent to that community. You’d probably like it, it’s not super busy or anything right now, but we could always use more users over there.
No memey shit over there though, it’s pretty explicitly focused on the underlying aspects of this kind of stuff.
subscribed!
thats the one! Hope to see you around there someday. I’m semi active whenever i feel like being mad about something lol.
It wouldn’t work, unless it was pretty heavily moderated a la askhistorians, or what have you. You’d probably just get like, AITA level nuance shit, where people drone on about like, things that are “common sense”, or commonly accepted talking points that have the pretense of nuance, but none of the actual weight. Maybe just like, mild centrism.
The thing about valuable, nuanced thought is that it’s mildly chafing in that it’s foreign and novel, introduces something new into the mix, but not so chafing that it’s impossible to accept from the current POV. Social media operates in contextually eliminating extremes, when you automate it all, you either get a system where people only push around stuff that’s highly agreeable, or stuff that’s extremely disagreeable. Nuance is basically anathema to automated online spaces.
probably be better than extremely partisan posting alone though.
I feel like you could totally monetize nuance, i’m just not sure how you would go about it, satire maybe?
I mean something that satire gets pretty rightfully dogged for a lot of the time, as a schtick, is a lack of nuanced understanding of an issue. Like south park’s manbearpig schtick, or maybe like, I dunno, borat. Idiocracy. Office space, maybe, dunno, haven’t seen that one, don’t know too much satire. Tropic thunder, I guess, right. None of these are really nuanced portrayals of what they’re satirizing, because to do so is kind of antithetical to the genre.
I mean something that satire gets pretty rightfully dogged for a lot of the time, as a schtick, is a lack of nuanced understanding of an issue.
that’s exactly the point, you provide a point that is so aggressively anti-nuance, that it forces people to reckon with the concept of nuance internally. Because obviously they shouldn’t be believing what you say.
Satire is hard, you have to do it correctly, and once done correctly it can be a very powerful tool. Everyone cites a modest proposal as a really good example of satire, because it is. You can’t just walk up to someone and exclaim yourself to be a nazi, walk away, and then go “no actually that was satire”
Ah, yeah, I see. I think if you’re going for that, the satire has to be more well-calculated than most tends to be. It can’t just be like, an extreme portrayal of opinions, because then you’ll either Poe’s law yourself into getting people that agree, or you’ll offend perhaps a target audience that needs their mind changed. I think I have noticed that I have had more success trying to kind of like, find a gap there, and then turn it around. Shitting in the street is likely to get you arrested sort of thing, if done as protest, RIP modern diogenes. But filling a cup with your own spit and then drinking it, that’s very weird, not something that anyone can really verbalize any logical opposition to, and is offensive. I don’t have any like, good political illustrations of that kind of satire, but, I’d go with something along those lines, something that can very obviously point out a flaw.
that’s kind of my problem with satire, is that i don’t think most people truly understand what satire is, they just write shitty humor and go “it’s satirical” when in reality, it’s just incredibly laden in irony, and you don’t understand the difference.
True satire IMO, is something that is so reprehensible, that it is literally impossible to believe, but not so reprehensible that it’s forbidden speak.
I’ve been toying with political satire myself, a couple good examples i’ve drummed up over the years are “human rights were a mistake” “i think eugenics is good actually” (although i don’t really like that one tbh) currently my favorite is what i refer to as “weaponized apathy” which is more performative satire than anything. You find something that you shouldn’t be apathetic to, and then become apathetic to it, and everything immediately surrounding it, preferably that includes the potential for your death. (you’re making a point, not an argument here) though the difficulty with the last two are contextual bindings, because it’s not trivial to just slot those in to everyday speak, you have to lead in and out from them. Otherwise they fall flat.
For me it’s less pointing out a flaw, and forcing people to think about things, because i think that helps. Also lets be honest, it’s funny watching people react.
Yeah see the problem with the first two examples you came up with is that I can count a lot of people I’ve interacted with that believe that shit. Maybe I need to get new friend groups, but it’s really hard to avoid poe’s law online, because you can find basically anyone who will believe any random shit you come up with, if you try hard enough. There aren’t any strawmen online anymore, there’s just viewpoints. Weaponized apathy is pretty good though I like that one. Going to a protest and just like bringing a grill and being like “I just want to grill for god’s sake”. You’ve arrived at the function to grill but also to be apathetic in public where people will see your apathy, very nice, very absurd.
Ooh, new strat I just remembered exists that might solve this issue a little bit, self-contradictory satire. It gets everyone really mad, but also it’s impossible to conceptualize of what’s actually being said without putting in a little bit of thought to actually sus out what’s happening there. Being a pro-life fundamentalist christian that thinks of life as happening at conception, but also being early term pro-abortion and pro stem cell research, pro-test tube babies, pro-genetic modification. God creates the man at conception, and we are trying to act more in the image of god, it’s only right to toy with life in the same way, maybe. I dunno, just spitballing, but maybe something like that could work as a satire. A satire of nothing, a satire of someone that doesn’t exist, I guess. A satire of everyone, total hypothetical.
It’s true that nuance does indeed often get lost in online debates, so I appreciate you for making this post.
thanks! i hope this format can catch on im kind of proud of it lol
keep doing it and it probably will to be honest.
Its a fun format, I like it :)
This meme is based AF
no u ❤️
OK, seriously, I thought I’ve spent enough free time on Lemmy telling you to watch Barbie here for some of you here to, you know, actually watch Barbie.
So let me be clear: it is ultimately the Barbies’ complete disregard for the Kens’ feelings that led to the Kens being poisoned by the idea of the Patriarchy and all the subsequent mess in Barbieland, so way ahead of you on 2, to reiterate, what the Kens did was wrong, but you have got to take a nuanced approach to these things.
Also, on 1, all I said was that unlike the meme I feel that bears are terrifying, and then some weirdo came out of the woodwork and got really angry and start talking over me and calling me a dumbass and I was making it all about me somehow. The irony was so palpable I was at a loss for words.
What? Men are going to adopt shitty beliefs and exercise their privilege no matter what and nothing can be done about it. /s
The gamification of social media means any attempt to draw a bright line of social conduct will just end in people deploying that rule in the most cynical context.
“Believe all women” means we’re going to slap generic women’s faces in our Avis and lie out our asses.
“Let people enjoy things” means reframing the most deplorable and nakedly hostile conduct as some kind of secret fetish you have to support.
“Protect Kids” means posting baby pictures under every comment and saying “This is who you’re talking to”.
“Act like an adult” means getting CP in your DMs.
When its all a fucking game and you score points by causing other people mental anguish, the only thing any sane healthy person can do is log off, touch grass, and get as far away from the hellscape that is social media as possible.
That’s an interesting perspective. They would say the same thing about “touching grass” when tv became popular. The scenarios you describe are more extreme versions of beaver and butthole are corrupting your kids.
They would say the same thing about “touching grass” when tv became popular.
They’d be right. TV absolutely rots your perception of the outside world. I can’t count the number of elderly people who have become shut-ins, thanks to the continuous bombardment of Sinclair Media crime-blotter local news coverage. People ingest too much of this crap and suddenly they’re too terrified to leave their homes.
The scenarios you describe are more extreme versions of beaver and butthole are corrupting your kids.
The Christ-o-fascists who lost their shit over MTV didn’t want kids to stop watching TV entirely. They just wanted the kids to watch religious broadcasts instead.
Growing up with them I can certifiably say you’re wrong. As a result I was out in the world doing things I look back on and think were fucking insane.
Ever wonder how you survived? I certainly do
I know for the most part I was always trying to be conservative with my friends and though we were taking risks I would try to draw the line somewhere. I think that helped but a lot of the time I was encouraging it too. Otherwise just dumb luck.
I mean the phenomenon of televangelists and televangelical megachurch pastors that spread their messages and propaganda through the same avenues as conventional media is a pretty like, well documented thing, I’d say. Tune into AM radio or cable TV and you can probably still peep some of them doing their thing. I don’t think their point is necessarily invalid, but I also think there’s more of like a happy medium between, watching TV all day and going outside and bumming around town as a latchkey kid and frying your brain on spice in the back of a much older guy’s car, or like. Robbing a low rent low security corner store on the edge of town.
I’m not saying christian media didn’t exist I’m just saying at no point were we given the option to do that instead. TV was satanic and we should go outside and stay out of the way.
there is only one truth, and it is that there is no gender war, only misdirection from class warfare that has monetized and monopolized even our interpersonal, romantic, and sexual connection.
when people don’t have problems, you can’t sell them solutions.
The shackles of sexism, racism, and homophobia do not simply fall off when you accept class consciousness. These are still fights for awareness which must continue to be fought. Otherwise, we risk allowing toxic mentalities into our midst, which will only serve to alienate and expel our minority brethren.
The cages built by the state which cordon us off from one another exist in the mind, but they are very real in impact. We must fight by destroying the cages in each of our thoughts, and pass our knowledge to others so they can do the same. That is the only means to stand as one.
Let’s also not forget that there are very real shackles placed on many groups - many real cages - which we must work to destroy as well.
Those who do not move do not notice their chains.
Noticing your chains and beginning to rattle them, and encouraging your peers to do the same, is the first step to releasing yourself from them, but it is not the only step.
Hey, been trying to meet you
Hey, must be a devil between us
Or whores in my head
Whores at the door
Whore in my bed
But hey!
Where have you been?
If you go, I will surely die
We’re chained
We’re chained
We’re chained
Chained
Here’s Orwell in “Homage to Catalonia”:
“There were perhaps a thousand men at the barracks, and a score or so of women, apart from the militiamen’s wives who did the cooking. There were still women serving in the militias, though not very many. In the early battles they had fought side by side with the men as a matter of course. It is a thing that seems natural in time of revolution. Ideas were changing ready, however. The militiamen had to be kept out of the riding-school while the women were drilling there because they laughed at the women and put them off. A few months earlier no one would have seen anything comic in a woman handling a gun.”
This was in an overwhelmingly leftist camp. Orwell sees glimpses of an anarchist collective based on mutual aid popping up. Yet, sexisim clearly persisted after a period where it had been pushed aside.
These issues don’t go away just because people become class conscious.
I don’t think this is a good example of class struggle, at least not directly. The bear meme is valid in as much as it describes one woman’s feelings, but the truth is that in 85-90% of cases, the woman knows her attacker1. The random man is simply not the issue.
The issue is power disparity. Teacher vs student, employer vs worker, landlord vs tenant. It’s difficult to reduce the power difference due to physical strength, but the others are all changeable. More (meaningful) oversight for police, better tenancy boards, and stronger unions are all examples of structures that might make it harder to victimize women.
Class struggle explains economic, and maybe political power, but those are not the only types of power in play.
And if I’m wrong? Then we’ve made a better society for nothing.
1 https://nij.ojp.gov/topics/articles/most-victims-know-their-attacker
i fundamentally agree with you. i think it depends on how loosely you define ‘direct’. class struggle has its fingers in many pies including
- marketing saturation / materialism
- mental health availability
- quality of education
- overall day-to-day stress levels
all of which are at odds with encouraging a more empathetic, happy, and healthy population of men. people who are angry and fearful and deprived are easier to control and sell products to than people who are kind and understanding and satisfied. a higher quality of life breeds a higher quality of people and interpersonal interactions.
Even if we take gender-based issues as very real (which is often not quite true since we target a demographic of literally half the planet, which is never representative), they come second to the class warfare.
A poor male worker holds way less power than a rich businesswoman.
epic intersectionality moment
If the only tool you have is a hammer, it is tempting to treat everything as if it were a nail.
No, we also have a sickle
I’ve got a guillotine in the garage I can break out, too, but I might need you guys to help me move it.
Social media doesn’t often reward kindness, but that’s what is needed. Show kindness to young men, when you can. They need better guidance.
Many people conflate kindness with weakness, however, in reality it is the opposite. It is easier to tear someone down, than to build something. The tendency to tear other people down comes from a need to feel higher in the social pecking order which they cannot attain with their lack of ability.
So much this. ❤️ But it’s tough.
I am making this post coming out of a comment section where women expressing their most personal and horrific experiences are getting majority downvotes, while men are yapping on and on about “the problem with feminism these days” over them and getting no shortage of likes. It’s frankly disturbing to witness.
I am trying to be kind with this (and all) posts because I recognize it is what is needed. But I also fully understand the plight of other women who get frustrated or even lash out.
Take a deep breath. Listen to one another. Be kind.
Needing to be rewarded in order to act is a property of children
You forget that the internet is indeed full of actual children
POST RESTORED THABK YOU MODS
Could someone explain number 2 to me? A lot of big words, and I have trouble to understand what it’s trying to say.
It’s claiming that pushing men out of civilized communities, spaces and conversations ultimately leads to them embracing more accepting alt-right ideologies and movements.
Thank you!
Follow up question: What would be a practical example on how to achieve this? To not push men out of civilized communities that is.
Let us talk, dont immediately shut us up if we aren’t actively harming the discussion, let men know that their feelings are valid too but that they dont overshadow others feelings (jumping straight to that second half is NOT helpful). Let memes like this one exist without deleting them for lumping them in with the angry assholes
👆👆🗣️🗣️
I think it has to happen in person.
At the heart of this is the unfortunate fact that nuance is lost in online discussion. The reason that the bear scenario is so notable is it is so polarising. “yes! That’s how I feel!” vs “you’re reducing me to a threat”
An honest and direct conversation between two peers is far more likely to have a lasting effect. Hearing what the lived experience is directly from the person who’s experiencing it is far, far more more compelling than the stark bear statement.
I don’t feel unsafe most of the time. But I have felt unsafe and vulnerable before. Thus when a female colleague told me about being followed by a guy in a park while walking her dog, and feeling torn between straight running away and keeping her pet safe, it resonated directly with me. I could see her reliving the experience and see her distress. She shouldn’t have to go through that. It’s not fair.
That conversation resonated far more completely than the bear tweet.
I don’t even think it has to be like, in person, necessarily, I just think it needs to be engaged with in good faith outside of like, the framing of the conversation as being spurned on by some sort of hypothetical, or being spurned on without like. Reportage between two people, without a relationship there pre-established. I’ve definitely had compelling conversations online, it’s just that it happens so often to be kind of, in spite of the larger machine they took place inside of.
The reason I say in person is because if the amount of information which is transmitted via direct conversation is orders of magnitude higher than through eye contact, tone, language and body language.
If you and I were talking right now, I could maintain eye contact, rotate my shoulders so I face you, position my head in a way that says I’m listening, use my voice to indicate that I’m contrite, or uncomfortable, or supportive.
It can be excruciatingly uncomfortable for people who are used to having virtual tools abstract away the hard parts of interaction. But that’s exactly what (in this case) women are saying they feel. They feel, in the real world, they’re not safe. To me, the weight of that comes from a direct interaction rather than a news article or twitter post.
My opinion etc
Young men are much more likely to be non-conforming to sexist cultural/gender norms and stereotypes, which often leads to them being ostracized more by general society and makes it easier for grifters (like manosphere influencers) to take ahold of them and radicalize them with alt-right and/or extremely misogynistic beliefs.
There are plenty of amazing feminist role models, but the right’s form of propoganda is so much more enticing because it tells you that everyone else is the problem and you’re superior to others, rather than ask you to give a shot at understanding reality like leftist influences do. That goes with anything on the right, fascists are a lot more motivating and good at gaining/rallying radical supporters because it’s so much easier to get people on your side if you’re allowed to lie about everything. So naturally, impressionable – and extremely vulnerable and emotionally volatile – young men gravitate towards the extreme negative influences due to how our society and education is poorly set up to prevent that.
And in this case how sexism and toxic masculinity is deeply ingrained into our society that so many of these young men are made to feel like they’re “not real men” by those around them, it really pushes them towards this even more. Rather than reject the idea of a “real man” or a “real woman”, they embrace them even more and convince themselves that they are the realest men, and OTHERS are pathetic.
It’s a lot easier to identify with the bad guys if you’re assumed to be a bad guy.
“Women think I’m more dangerous than a bear? What the hell? I never did anything”
Followed by
“hey what this guy on YouTube says is true, women sexualise themselves, I mean look at instagram. This isn’t my problem,.”
I know this is a bit of an over simplification but thought 1 is what I thought.
I’m a bit older, tho and my second thought was - “but ive never felt unsafe alone with a woman, definitely have felt unsafe around some men.”
It blames women who express their fear of being scared of men for the violence commited by men against women
I think your post is exactly what is criticized by OP. In the first part of the post it is explicitly stated men should not talk over the fear of women. A message like yours seems to blame people just because they criticize the way of discussion in some places. I think it is obvious that men are influenced in a possible negative way, when they are always seen as danger. At least for me it probably contributed to my low self esteem, especially in all sex/gender related topics. I think, we as men do so much harm, I don’t want to take part in this. But i took it to the extreme, so I was ashamed of everything sexual about me. But as OP said, all of this doesn’t invalidate the feeling of any woman. But for example this situation here is not governed by fear, still it seems you can’t discuss the social effects of this sentiment “against” man, without discrediting the other side. Sure, violence done mainly to women is the most important topic. But if men always get portrayed as danger, I can understand some are open to other, more misogynist worldviews.
Read their post history, it’s a troll
Gr8 b8 m8
Ah yes what a fun meme, so much haha’s were had.
There is zero quality control here. I would rather see spam ads leading to shady websites than political grandstanding and ragebait at this point. At least this post isn’t being intentionally divisive.
shitty people are just shitty, gender has nothing to do with it. Women and men are both capable of being abusers.
Man…my BIL with his baby-mama/ex-fiance. I used to work with her (that’s where they met, we all worked together at the time).
She’s so nice and bubbly on the surface but holy shit there’s a demon under that veneer and I’ve met it. That manipulative demon is how she became baby-mama after she became ex-fiance. But he puts up with it so he can keep seeing his kid and hopefully shield him from it ~half the time.
Me likey
HOW DARE YOU /s
