• CeeBee@lemmy.world
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    1 year ago

    A religious scholar, who would greatly benefit from people thinking of positively of his religion.

    This assumes all religious scholars have a nefarious agenda. I donā€™t doubt some or many do, but no more so than the final population average. There are many who genuinely want to help others and believe in teaching and sharing peace.

    I donā€™t even need to respond to it, it just speaks for itself.

    Because you think ā€œslaveryā€ means the same thing across all time. That level of willful ignorance speaks for itself also.

    Yes. Itā€™s literally "All of you are equal, some are just more equal than others

    No, itā€™s all are equal but not everyone can have the same job and responsibilities. Not everyone can be the owner of a company (unless youā€™re WestJet).

    Ah, I see. ā€œSeperate but equalā€.

    Just ā€œequalā€.

    In fact, every employee can start their own company and become its CEO.

    I did specify ā€œlarge corporationā€ in my example. Thanks for ignoring that.

    Yep, that fits.

    Involuntary servitude under the law (back in the era weā€™re talking about) had clear definitions. It was often invoked to collect a debt and could only be held until the debt was paid off, not longer. Captured non-Hebrew enemies were also sometimes put under involuntary servitude. But they were required to either convert, at which point they would be freed. Or else sold off to a non-Hebrew.

    Iā€™ll never understand how people like you can sink to such levels, defending slavery.

    And Iā€™ll never understand how people can have such reductionist ways of thinking. ā€œSlaveryā€, as itā€™s used today, is technically ā€œchattel slaveryā€, which is different. They have similar letters in English, but are not the same thing. Some translations even use different terms because the modern English word ā€œslaveryā€ has a different meaning. Indentured and voluntary servitude were commonplace back then. Today it isnā€™t. Although the relationship between an employee and employer share many of the same definitions. ā€œSlavesā€ under voluntary servitude were even able to ā€œseek a new masterā€. Basically find a new job. Such cruelty.

    • SuddenlyBlowGreen@lemmy.world
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      1 year ago

      This assumes all religious scholars have a nefarious agenda. I donā€™t doubt some or many do, but no more so than the final population average. There are many who genuinely want to help others and believe in teaching and sharing peace.

      Well, this one clearly does, as heā€™s trying to whitewash slavery to make his religion look better. Seems pretty nefarious to me.

      Because you think ā€œslaveryā€ means the same thing across all time

      They are ot free to leave, and can be abused by their masters at will. Itā€™s close enough.

      No, itā€™s all are equal but not everyone can have the same job and responsibilities.

      Except the high jobs and high responsiblilities are only available to men.

      You know your arguments about this sound familiar to those used by pro-segregationits. I would say something about strange bedfellows, but since youā€™re agruing for thr same thing, I guess itā€™s not so strange.

      Involuntary servitude

      Involuntary servitude

      Of course, you forget to mention how none of this forgiveness applies to women, who werenā€™t freed after six years/the debt being paid off, and could instead be forcibly taken as a wife.

      And of course slaves taken from neighbouring countries werenā€™t to be returned or freed, they were slaves for life.

      ā€œSlavesā€ under voluntary servitude were even able to ā€œseek a new masterā€. Basically find a new job.

      Voluntary servitude? Maybe.

      Were they able to get a new job under involuntary servitude? No. So slavery.

      But indentured servitude with physical abuse is still slavery, and the bible supports it. No way around it.

      Thereā€™s a saying that when democracy doesnā€™t favour conservatives, they donā€™t turn from conservatism, theyā€™ll turn on democracy. As it turns out it also applies to christans: when christians find out the bible supports slavery, they donā€™t turn of the bible, instead theyā€™ll start saying slavery was actually good. And lo and beholdā€¦

      And of course the rampant homophobia.

      • CeeBee@lemmy.world
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        1 year ago

        Well, this one clearly does, as heā€™s trying to whitewash slavery to make his religion look better. Seems pretty nefarious to me.

        You really should listen to Dan Carlinā€™s podcasts. (Even if itā€™s not for the sake of this discussion, his content is unmatched)

        https://www.dancarlin.com/product/hardcore-history-68-blitz-human-resources/

        They are ot free to leave, and can be abused by their masters at will. Itā€™s close enough.

        Laws were in place to prevent abuse. That doesnā€™t mean it didnā€™t happen. Even today (with our laws and ways to monitor and report things) thereā€™s abuse of literally every kind in every facet of society.

        Your premise assumes that slaves in ancient Israel were regularly abused and their masters were harsh and uncaring. Historical accounts say otherwise.

        Except the high jobs and high responsiblilities are only available to men.

        Itā€™s not like it comes with more pay like a job. Itā€™s basically just more work.

        You know your arguments about this sound familiar to those used by pro-segregationits.

        Because thatā€™s what youā€™re choosing to hear. Youā€™re ignoring all the other things Iā€™ve said.

        Were they able to get a new job under involuntary servitude? No.

        Obviously not. Just as a prisoner canā€™t just go find a new prison or a criminal go find a more favourable judge. Involuntary servitude was a form of judicial punishment or a result of war.

        But indentured servitude with physical abuse is still slavery

        Anything with abuse is abuse and is abhorrent. The Bible says as much.

        and the bible supports it.

        No, the Bible records it. The Bible also places a huge emphasis on showing love to your neighbour and your enemy. To the point that itā€™s considered a core teaching of Jesus.

        1 Thessalonians 5:15Ā - ā€œSee that no one repays injury for injury to anyone, but always pursue what is good toward one another and to all others.ā€

        Treat everyone well

        Exodus 20:10 - ā€œbut the seventh day is a sabbath to Jehovah your God. You must not do any work, neither you nor your son nor your daughter nor your slave man nor your slave girl nor your domestic animal nor your foreign resident who is inside your settlements.ā€

        Workers/slaves should not be overworked.

        Exodus 21:12 - ā€œAnyone who strikes a man so that he dies must be put to death.ā€

        Exodus 21:16 - ā€œIf anyone kidnaps a man and sells him or is caught holding him, he must be put to death.ā€

        Exodus 21:26,27 - ā€œIf a man strikes the eye of his slave man or the eye of his slave girl and he destroys it, he is to let the slave go free in compensation for his eye. 27 And if he knocks out the tooth of his slave man or of his slave girl, he is to let the slave go free in compensation for his tooth.ā€

        Physical abuse resulted in the slave being released.

        instead theyā€™ll start saying slavery was actually good.

        No one here ever said slavery of any kind was good. Not in the slightest. You might be confusing your preconceptions for something I said.

        • SuddenlyBlowGreen@lemmy.world
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          1 year ago

          You really should listen to Dan Carlinā€™s podcasts. (Even if itā€™s not for the sake of this discussion, his content is unmatched)

          I really donā€™t care about your religious podcast, especially one that tries to whitewash slavery.

          Itā€™s not like it comes with more pay like a job. Itā€™s basically just more work.

          It does come with pay, as well and power and influence.

          Because thatā€™s what youā€™re choosing to hear. Youā€™re ignoring all the other things Iā€™ve said.

          Iā€™m hearing reality and ignoring the delusional falsehoods youā€™re saying, yes.

          Youā€™re also ignoring the part where women slaves could be forced to marry their masters, where men could not.

          But they were completely equal, right?

          Anything with abuse is abuse and is abhorrent. The Bible says as much.

          I didnā€™t say that for the part where it says how you can beat your slave.

          It didnā€™t say that for the part about dashing babies into rocks.

          It didnā€™t say that for child murder.

          No, the Bible records it. The Bible also places a huge emphasis on showing love to your neighbour and your enemy.

          Oh, I see. When something supports agenda then itā€™s the bibleā€™s core message, but when something doesnā€™t look to good for it, then itā€™s just recorded in it, and also out of context.

          How convenient.

          If you havenā€™t noticed, the bible frequently contradicts itself.

          No one here ever said slavery of any kind was good. Not in the slightest. You might be confusing your preconceptions for something I said.

          Huh, so this wasnā€™t a quote used by you?

          ā€œIn fact, there were cases in which, from a slaveā€™s point of view, the stability of servitude under a family in which the slave was well-treated would have been preferable to economic freedom.ā€

          • CeeBee@lemmy.world
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            1 year ago

            I really donā€™t care about your religious podcast, especially one that tries to whitewash slavery.

            LMAO! Dan Carlin is far from religious, and the last thing he does is whitewash anything. In fact, the stuff he talks about is blood curdling and may even make you vomit everywhere.

            Edit: Iā€™m still reeling with laughter at the absurdity at calling Dan Carlinā€™s podcast ā€œreligiousā€ and his content ā€œwhitewashingā€.

            It does come with pay, as well and power and influence.

            If youā€™re referring to those mega churches and people like the Duggars, then ya. I agree with you there and agree thatā€™s wrong.

            I didnā€™t say that for the part where it says how you can beat your slave.

            You know well that this is about judicial punishment. If a slave murders someone, for example

            It didnā€™t say that for the part about dashing babies into rocks.

            Psalms 137:9 is talking about Babylon the Great, which represents false religion. And her ā€œchildrenā€ are the terrible things she does.

            Oh, I see. When something supports agenda then itā€™s the bibleā€™s core message, but when something doesnā€™t look to good for it, then itā€™s just recorded in it, and also out of context.

            No. Itā€™s a reality and a fact that not every single word in the Bible is a commandment. There has to be context and even just basic information about events, people, cultures, etc.

            Huh, so this wasnā€™t a quote used by you?

            Is it a good thing that people go on welfare, or is it preferable to starving? Again, this is where we get into the definition of the word. Think about it, how would it be preferable to be mistreated, beaten, and abused?

            • SuddenlyBlowGreen@lemmy.world
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              1 year ago

              LMAO! Dan Carlin is far from religious, and the last thing he does is whitewash anything. In fact, the stuff he talks about is blood curdling and may even make you vomit everywhere.

              Sure bud, Iā€™ll rephrase. I really donā€™t care about your totally non-religious podcast, especially one that tries to whitewash indentured servitude.

              If youā€™re referring to those mega churches and people like the Duggars, then ya. I agree with you there and agree thatā€™s wrong.

              Them too. But you only need to look at how the christian churches protect pedophiles and abusers, help them escape the law and reoffend again to see how much power and influence they get.

              Plus, the catholic church alone is worth billions, with land holdings, historical artifacts, etc.

              Becoming a high-ranking member grants you influence over your underlings and delusional people, food and shelter for the rest of your life, etc.

              You know well that this is about judicial punishment. If a slave murders someone, for example

              Feel free to quote the verse where it says you can only beat slaves as judicial punishment.

              No. Itā€™s a reality and a fact that not every single word in the Bible is a commandment. There has to be context and even just basic information about events, people, cultures, etc.

              And that context just happens to be in form of direct commandments. Oops.

              Is it a good thing that people go on welfare, or is it preferable to starving? Again, this is where we get into the definition of the word. Think about it, how would it be preferable to be mistreated, beaten, and abused?

              I think plenty of people would prefer to be poor and free then to be fed and a slave.

              But if you think otherwise, would you be in favor of putting all homeless and poor people in involuntary servitude? Since itā€™s preferable to welfare and starving, according to you.

              And then of course thereā€™s all the homophobia in the bible, but that seems to be a positive to people such as you who support sex based discrimination.

              • CeeBee@lemmy.world
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                1 year ago

                Them too. But you only need to look at how the christian churches protect pedophiles and abusers, help them escape the law and reoffend again to see how much power and influence they get.

                Plus, the catholic church alone is worth billions, with land holdings, historical artifacts, etc.

                Becoming a high-ranking member grants you influence over your underlings and delusional people, food and shelter for the rest of your life, etc.

                All of this is true. Hence why the ā€œchildrenā€ (these acts of abuse) of Babylon the Great (false religion) need to be dashed against a wall.

                Sure bud, Iā€™ll rephrase. I really donā€™t care about your totally non-religious podcast, especially one that tries to whitewash indentured servitude.

                Ya, this here sums up this entire discussion quite nicely. You have staked your arguments to be the complete opposite of what I have to say. So much so that you immediately attribute everything I say to ignorance and religious bias.

                If you knew who Dan Carlin is, if you were familiar with his content, and, most especially, if you had listened to the Humane Resources episode, you would understand how utterly ridiculous your statements are.

                Everything I have said has been met with either ignoring it, denial, or flat out ignorance. The fact that you immediately dismissed Hardcore History as a ā€œreligious podcastā€ and still maintain that it ā€œwhitewashesā€ anything, all without even looking up the podcast (which tops Podcast charts in multiple categories, primarily history) is rich and entirely telling that you are unable to be objective in the slightest in this discussion.

                I respect your opinions (I really do), but I canā€™t continue talking to you as youā€™re unwilling to even entertain the idea of listening to the ā€œother sideā€.

                • SuddenlyBlowGreen@lemmy.world
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                  1 year ago

                  All of this is true. Hence why the ā€œchildrenā€ (these acts of abuse) of Babylon the Great (false religion) need to be dashed against a wall.

                  Of course.

                  And when the bible says all homosexuals must be killed, what metaphor is that? Or is it missed context?

                  You have staked your arguments to be the complete opposite of what I have to say.

                  I tend to do that when the person Iā€™m arguing against supports such despicable things.

                  The fact that you immediately dismissed Hardcore History as a ā€œreligious podcastā€ and still maintain that it ā€œwhitewashesā€ anything, all without even looking up the podcast

                  I looked up dan carlin and he has a some christian podcast called Word Christian Fellowship podcast. But sure, not religious or bias.

                  telling that you are unable to be objective in the slightest in this discussion.

                  Unable to be objective by agreeing with you that slavery was a good thing? Are you listening to yourself?

                  (which tops Podcast charts in multiple categories, primarily history)

                  Are you his publicist or something? Youā€™re trying really hard so sell his stuff.

                  It seems your forgot to answer this:

                  Is it a good thing that people go on welfare, or is it preferable to starving? Again, this is where we get into the definition of the word. Think about it, how would it be preferable to be mistreated, beaten, and abused?

                  I think plenty of people would prefer to be poor and free then to be fed and a slave.

                  But if you think otherwise, would you be in favor of putting all homeless and poor people in involuntary servitude? Since itā€™s preferable to welfare and starving, according to you.

                  And then of course thereā€™s all the homophobia in the bible, but that seems to be a positive to people such as you who support sex based discrimination.

                  • CeeBee@lemmy.world
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                    1 year ago

                    And when the bible says all homosexuals must be killed, what metaphor is that? Or is it missed context?

                    The only time thatā€™s mentioned is once in Leviticus, and was specific to the ancient Israelites under the Mosaic law. Other things that were punishable by death were: adultery, blasphemy, idolatry, witchcraft, woman marrying and falsely claiming to be a virgin, sleeping with an engaged women, etc. At that time the term ā€œJewā€ was both cultural and religious, there was no difference. If you were a Jew (an Israelite) then you were under that law.

                    Without getting too much into it, the Bible says that Mosaic law is superceded by the Law Covenant at the time of Jesusā€™ death, and thus is no longer in affect.

                    The Bible further elaborates about how we should treat anyone.

                    Josiah 24:15 - ā€œNow if it seems bad to you to serve Jehovah, choose for yourselves today whom you will serve,Ā whether the gods that your forefathers served on the other side of the RiverĀ or the gods of the AmŹ¹orĀ·ites in whose land you are dwelling.Ā But as for me and my household, we will serve Jehovah.ā€

                    If you donā€™t want to follow the Bible or serve Jehovah, you are free to do so, and no one can make you (according to the Bible itself, but obviously that hasnā€™t stopped things like the Crusades).

                    1 Peter 2:17 - ā€œHonor men of all sortsā€

                    Pretty cut and dry.

                    The reason I ignored this topic before is because it has absolutely nothing to do with the original discussion, which was ā€œthe Bible does not teach tortureā€. I havenā€™t even been advocating the Bible, only talking about that one topic. But like all people who either canā€™t admit being wrong, or are wilfully ignorant and obstinate, you completely disregarded everything Iā€™ve said and keep going on about other things in the Bible.

                    I tend to do that when the person Iā€™m arguing against supports such despicable things.

                    Ah, so if I said ā€œeveryone deserves respectā€ you would argue in favour of treating everyone terribly?

                    I looked up dan carlin and he has a some christian podcast called Word Christian Fellowship podcast. But sure, not religious or bias.

                    Like I said, if you knew his content from Hardcore History, any of it, you would understand how ridiculous your statement is. But just wait until you find out that some of the greatest minds regarded in science were Christian and believed in God.

                    Unable to be objective by agreeing with you that slavery was a good thing? Are you listening to yourself?

                    Are you genuinely still asserting that I ever said ā€œslavery was a good thingā€? At this point youā€™re either just a troll or just really thick.

                    Are you his publicist or something? Youā€™re trying really hard so sell his stuff.

                    No. I suggested his stuff once, and then just kept laughing (not mockingly, I genuinely found it funny) at how absurd your attempts to discredit Hardcore History is, based purely on your bias towards me.

                    I think plenty of people would prefer to be poor and free then to be fed and a slave.

                    And Iā€™m pretty sure no one ever wants to be poor in the first place. But if wishes were horsesā€¦

                    But if you think otherwise, would you be in favor of putting all homeless and poor people in involuntary servitude?

                    The sad thing is that you might actually think I believe that, despite every rational attempt at genuine dialogue on my part. Makes me wonder if you even read everything that I wrote, and have just been assuming.

                    And then of course thereā€™s all the homophobia in the bible

                    The Bible says homosexuality is displeasing to God because itā€™s not how he intended romantic relationships to be. But it also says sex (of any kind) outside of marriage is also not ok. The big factor that people miss is that the Bible says to ā€œhate what is badā€, it never says ā€œhate who is badā€. You can hate the things someone does, but you should always treat them with respect, and even to love them as your neighbour.

                    But all of this is really relevant to the discussion about slavery in the Bible, right? It doesnā€™t have anything to do with the fact that you canā€™t argue the topic about slavery in the Bible on its own merit, is it?

                    Surely you wouldnā€™t try to discredit the source material in order to undermine your opponents arguments. Not you, never.

                    Anyways, Iā€™m done with this discussion. You can reply if you like. Iā€™ll read it, but I wonā€™t reply if you keep misrepresenting what Iā€™ve said and try to put words in my mouth. If you donā€™t, then Iā€™m willing to continue.

                    But otherwise Iā€™ll say nice chatting with you, and take care.