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Let’s make this clear: Spanish population only grows because of immigration. We have one of the lowest birth rates in the world (see https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/birth-rate-by-country), but allowing immigration has somewhat contained our population decline. Without immigration, our pension and health systems would be unsustainable, unable to cater an aging population. So we have immigration to thank for what you see in that image. Countries with low birth rates and low immigration (like Japan) are actually doomed.
I guess this is true for a lot of countries on this map where population numbers have increased in the higher two digits. At least it’s also true for Switzerland and yet one of the most popular political parties is actively promoting laws to limit further immigration. Not that this is surprising in the current political environment in Europe where it seems we are seeing a right shift in a lot of governments nowadays.
Yes, I imagine that is the case for other countries, but I just talked about Spain because that’s where I live, and I know the reality here. Immigration is a completely positive event. We should be really thankful for those immigration waves we had in the past.
That seems to suggest that relying on immigration to support a population is not a sustainable system.
Where did you get that from? I’m thanking immigration for helping our population growth. Can you please elaborate where you get that idea from?
What happens if all countries were doing well enough for immigration to slow down? Like not having constant wars and dictatorships?
What happens if your country becomes less appealing to immigrants, or gets a short surge of anti immigration leadership like the US?
If an increase in population is necessary to support retirement and your own population can’t sustain that, then you are propping up a system that requires other countries to be worse off. That cannot continue indefinitely.
But I’m not proposing in any way immigration as a path to solve the problem of aging population. That interpretation is solely on you.
I’m only saying that immigration it’s just a phenomenon that happened (and it’s not happening at the same rate as in the past anymore), and that I’m glad it happened, because if not, we would be in real trouble really soon. I’m just thankful for the immigrants to this country, because it’s them saving our asses (in contrast to people thinking they’re a problem).
The causes of our aging population are other, and the real solution requires actions that I wish politicians tried to solve. Immigration was just a temporary fix, that we should be thankful for, but it’s not the solution to the problem at all, nor am I proposing it as the solution.
I think you read too much in my post.
I think you are assuming that my comment was trying to invalidate yours instead of expanding on it with my own observation.
You started your comment with “That seems to suggest…” Well, no, I’m not suggesting anything more than what I said. Just that. And I don’t feel the need to explain anything further. Cheers.
I didn’t say that you suggested anything or that you need to explain anything.
Have you had a discussion where people expanded on and added to other people’s comments before or is this a new experience?
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It also means there is a disincentive to help bring up the rest of the world because that would reduce the rate of immigration.
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The unsustainable part is having a pension and health system which relies on constant growth.
Now do one without immigration. Is there even an EU country that has bigger birth rates than it did in 1990?
Which is just another reason why the aversion to immigration on display by such large parts of EU society at the moment is just so freaking dumb and counterproductive.
I agree with you, but you can’t just change the demographic makeup of any territory without some resistance from the native population. Push back is to be expected. You can tell Europeans “your people will go extinct without this”, the rational response would be to accept it, but people aren’t always rational.
Well, population decline doesn’t automatically mean extinction. Eternal growth is not possible. The system should not rely on perpetual population growth.
Population decline due to low birth rates has never happened. Population declines have always been due to disease or war or something like that, taking the adults and leaving a young population behind. It’s not about a system, an aging population with low birth rates probably amounts to population collapse, but we are in uncharted territory and can’t know for sure how it plays out.
More like almost never
Well, let’s wait until the Boomers go into retirement and the economy really crashes, due to the lack of manpower. Maybe some people will change their view on immigration then.
Nah, we can just lower their pensions when they aren’t in power anymore.
What are they going to do, destroy the planet for profit even more?
Ukraine pre or post invasion? So what point of 2022?
what happened in turkey? how did they increase so heavily? didn’t large amounts of their population move to central europe in that same timeframe?
Larger amounts of Syria fled to Turkey.
Since 2006 it is about migration to and from Germany is about equal. A lot of Turks moved back to Turkey as the economy grew and well with a German pension Turkey is a great place to live, especially when you speak the langauge and have family there.
Other then that the Turkey has natural population growth and Syrians and other migrants moving to Turkey.
Turkey has brain drain. The educated people are moving away. Those are usually the ones with smaller families.
Woah. Luxembourg is BLOWIN’ UP!
Yeah, there are now a total of 20 people living there except the 6 from before.
It wanted to stop Belgium from having all the fun.
Ireland is interesting here. I don’t believe they have as many people immigrating to them as other countries, which indicates this is mostly people not leaving as was widespread until the 00’s.
It’s a combination of immigration and returning emigrants.
You mean people don’t want to live in wartorn and just plain shitty countries and flee to more progressive and human right focused countries. Weird. And now those shitty countries just get shittier because those that could leave did and they are usually the healthy/smart people.
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For the immigrants from Syria, Turkey is an improvement.
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Also, Estonia and Lithuania fucking rule.
They are just passing through, let’s see the numbers for 2023.
No, they got effectively halted during the time of the immigration deal between Turkey and the EU. Now, that the deal failed, it remains to be seen, if refugees continue to Europe or stay where they are.
Norway had a birth number of 1.41 in 2022. We are absolutely dependent on immigration to uphold our society.
We have our flaws as well, but we’re not a shitty country
According to this map Cyprus and part of Azerbaijan belongs to Turkey. Congratulations, you just started WW3.
And Ireland, and Island, and Norway.
Color is determined by value, not countryNo this map counts cyprus as its own area and thats a pretty progressive thing actually.
Colors are off. Green is less people red more.
Green is less people red more.
?
We don’t need more people, we need less.
we need more red people
We can’t just skin everyone, man.
Why? Many European countries struggle with not having enough people.
No Wtf
Lad, we’re not making enough kids. Society is not sustainable with an aging population and less people to work. We are absolutely dependent on immigration.
No. We need less people. In general, there is no shortage of workers, there is just inefficiency, bad working conditions and bad pay.
The fairytale of “worker shortage” was made up by employers that want to get away with paying nothing for work and treating their workers like shit.
If you want to shrink a population, you have to do it slowly while adapting the system to it. In a few years, with the boomer generation slowly retiring, Europe would be fucked without immigration. Too many retired people with not enough young people to care for them and uphold the economy at the same time. You can’t fix the resulting hole in manpower by only increasing efficiency. In Germany we are talking about a lack of 400k people per year.
It’s not that we have too many people, it’s that we have an inefficient system based on exploiting those people and not providing for them.
We could probably sustain several times the current population… just not with the current methods we use.
