Now that student borrowers aren’t getting a “free ride”, I want PPP loan recipients to be required to pay back the full amount, plus say, 9% interest, retroactively. Why should my tax dollars pay for your free business loan?
Please, think of the billionaires /s
Student loan forgiveness doesn’t go far enough. We need to overhaul the higher education system to rein in the cost of tuition. I mean, regardless of where you stand on student loan forgiveness, can we at least all agree that a bachelor’s degree costing anywhere near six figures is absurd?
aw geez
edit:
America: We need to reduce cost of education!
Government: Hey let’s put our taxes towards cheaper education!
America: no.
America, can you explain?
America, can you explain?
The system is rigged by the greediest people in the country.
Why is it rigged? Are adults surprised they’re obliged to pay back money they borrowed?I
When the richest people in the country get loan forgiveness then yes, it can be surprising that the poor don’t get it.
American here. I can explain: Republicans.
America, can you explain?
This plan required an act of Congress, the president acted unilaterally and illegally in instituting the plan. The president isn’t a dictator, he must go through congress for quite a number of things.
Except this wasn’t enacted by the president but by the Secretary of Education under the Biden administration and the power was given to them by congress as part of the HEROES act.
If the supreme court wasn’t corrupt, they might have still struck this down but not under the cases that reached the supreme court. The fact that they found the original cases to have standing is actually insane and it’s likely to open a can of worms because they were basically:
“it’s not fair for only certain groups to benefit from government programs.”
Do you know how many things are going to be challenged now? And, for it not to create chaos, these new challenges will have to go to the supreme court again where they will have to do mental gymnastics to backpedal on why their decision applies here but not on whatever weird future cases. Jesus what a circus.
the power was given to them by congress as part of the HEROES act
It very specifically was not, and that is the issue.
" The HEROES Act … does not allow the Secretary to rewrite that statute to the extent of canceling $430 billion of student loan principal."
The extent of the power of the HEROES act is debatable and thus why this has reached the supreme court. If you read it, the HEROES act was very vague the begin with, as these things often out in our messed up legal system. Like I said. They could argue against or for the HEROES ability to grant this power and they could easily argue it either way because that’s how our legal system works. But, that they did it with these cases is still insane because the sanding for these cases is wacko.
The standing wasnt wacko. You’re just not informed about the facts of the case. Missouri stood to lose about 44mil/yr or somewhere around there. That’s legitimate standing, regardless of your politics.
Eehh fuck the conseritives on the supreme court.
Wouldn’t it just be so cool to live in a society where people cared about their neighbors?
it’s called communism. doesnt work.
Thats not what communism is and even if it was, you literally just tried to say caring about other people is bad regardless of what its called. This is part of the problem.
He said the quiet part out loud.
Republicans don’t care about anyone except themselves, and they think EVERYONE is actually that self centered. They literally think progressives are just faking it to gain power.
Let’s be real, they don’t even care about themselves. The real motivation is hurting others and punching down.
Go back to your conservative instance, bigotry and hate is not welcome here
He simply said (admittedly completely wrong) something doesn’t work, how exactly is that bigotry and hate???
Usually conservatives are the ones to call people working together for the benefit of their fellow human and humanity communism
it isnt. a lot of folks dont know how language actually works
This quote from Pence is so unbelievably infuriating.
Joe Biden’s massive trillion-dollar student loan bailout subsidizes the education of elites on the backs of hardworking Americans
Good to know all of the millennial and gen z college graduates earning less than $125,000 per year and struggling in an awful economy are “elites” and not “hardworking Americans.”
Since I’m now apparently an elite, do I get a membership card in the mail?
Although the language is very imprecise, a university graduate will make $720,000 more over a 20 year period than a non-university graduate, spend four years out of the labour force not paying taxes and then will also have a higher life expectancy drawing from the public pension longer.
Tell me why it’s reasonable for people who didn’t go to university to help foot the bill for people who did?
This is the exact type of resentment members of the GOP are trying to sow among marginally different income brackets to promote infighting rather than pointing the finger at the actual “elite” class. You shouldn’t have to be saddled with massive amounts of debt to simply get an education. Adjusted for inflation, college tuition has increased nearly 750% since 1963. Source.
Why not tax the rich to pay for programs to support the lower and middle classes? Or subsidize education?
a university graduate will make $720,000 more over a 20 year period than a non-university graduate
That $720,000 difference over 20 years is less than a one-year salary for thousands of CEOs. Based on this list, there are 2,721 CEOs who earned more than $720,000 in 2021 (you have to scroll all the way down to page 137 to find a CEO earning less than $720,000).
It’s a drop in the bucket.
spend four years out of the labour force not paying taxes and then will also have a higher life expectancy drawing from the public pension longer.
If university grads earn more, wouldn’t their higher tax contributions quickly make up for the four non-tax-paying years compared to someone earning less without a degree? Not to mention it isn’t uncommon for students to also work while in college.
Regarding life expectancy, this is the same blame-game criticism. What impact would affordable healthcare have on life expectancy? Or a higher minimum wage?
Tell me why it’s reasonable for people who didn’t go to university to help foot the bill for people who did?
You could make the same argument for any type of program that distributes tax dollars to others. “Why should my hard-earned money go to someone sitting at home on welfare?”
The federal government clearly has no problem throwing obscene amounts of money at corporations, whether they need it or not, so why not divert some of that aid to the people?
When I took out my student loans, I knew what I was signing up for, and I never expected — or wanted – the government to step in and waive them. After seeing the massive amounts of money the government handed out in the form of PPP funds, including potentially $200 billion fraudulently (source), my view changed. If billionaires were getting PPP loans for millions of dollars, why shouldn’t a bunch of college graduates get $20,000 each?
Would you rather your tax money go to reducing student debt or $2 million to $5 million to Kanye West’s Yeezys? Or Tom Brady’s TB12 getting nearly $1 million?
It’s obviously not an actual either-or question, but ultimately, if the government is bailing out billionaires, banks, etc., then yeah, fuck it, help your middle class college graduates.
There aren’t enough CEOs to tax to make up the $400 billion it would cost for the student loan forgiveness.
5 rich people sign a paper saying it’s cool if they die in a shitty submarine, they do, and we spent millions trying to find them.
But people actually need help and we could improve our society and economy in numerous ways, and we can’t do that.
I hate this place so God damn much.
we Americans are granted a lot of freedoms - not that many countries offer similar freedoms. you could try to leave & go elsewhere but just because the grass looks greener, it doesnt mean that it is.
“America touts itself as the land of the free, but the number one freedom that you and I have is the freedom to enter into a subservient role in the workplace. Once you exercise this freedom you’ve lost all control over what you do, what is produced, and how it is produced. And in the end, the product doesn’t belong to you. The only way you can avoid bosses and jobs is if you don’t care about making a living. Which leads to the second freedom: the freedom to starve”
-Tom Morello, Rage Against the Machine
So if I want my freedoms as a gay man I should just move? Rather than us just being better? It’s cool to praise the US and our freedoms, but the second we see the opposite we just tell people to leave, and yet we are supposed to be the good guys? Lol
You may have been exposed to a bit too much propoganda my guy. The USA doesn’t even crack the top 20 in most major freedom indices.
Yeah the freedom to have your womb owned by the Catholic Church, the freedom to die of an easily treatment condition, the freedom to spend your life in debt.
Fuck off with that American exceptionalism bullshit. It’s as shit a country as any other country and it always has been.
I do not like the SCOTUS
that’s ok, our opinion doesnt matter.
Why do they always have to pull this shit right before I see my conservative family members on the 4th of July?
Disown them. I stopped all voluntary association outside of work with rightwingers.
My family and friends are a packaged deal. If you don’t like them then you don’t like me. My wife is an immigrant non-white non-christian. My sister-in-law is trans. My children are biracial. I have Muslim friends, Hindu friends, Jewish friends, Gay friends. I won’t associate with anyone who doesn’t support their right to exist and flourish. My parents (and the rest of my birth family) decided to not support the people I love so I decided to protect their grandchildren from them.
Blood means nothing.
So that when they say “you take out a loan, you pay it back,” you can point out to them that Donald Trump filed for bankruptcy (i.e. didn’t pay back his loans) five times in his life.
They will just say it wasn’t personal bankruptcy.
You can’t argue with prostudent debt people. The answers and excuses keep changing and morphing. You might as well try to convince a theist out of God.
Lets be honest - the plan was an overreach. This had to pass through congress. So SC is not wrong.
But it couldn’t pass through congress because of lobbying. Which was bribery made legal by SC. Which was a very controversial decision. But if Roe could be overturned, we should focus on getting Citizen United overturned. And America will be great again.
But for that US should be united. And that will not happen because all the oligarchs domestic and abroad make sure of that and they lobby secretly and hard. You have Saudis, Chinese buying corporations influencing US decision making. You have Russian interference. European banks also service these oligarchs, so its in their interest too. Now other countries with oligarchs are jumping in too. And they put smokes and mirrors in front of you to keep you off from the real goal - creating issues where there should be none. To keep America divided.
So its a long attrition based slug war which can only be fought when we love our fellow Americans and stop listening to hate everywhere around us. And realize that all politicians are evil, so you have to keep them pressed. They will not share power, we the people have to be strong and take the power from them.
No one can destroy US. Only US can destroy US.
This is the most lukewarm, wishy washy, “enlightened centrist” shit I have ever read. Like,
So its a long attrition based slug war which can only be fought when we love our fellow Americans and stop listening to hate everywhere around us.
???
What are you fucking talking about? This is some next level naivety.
The two party system sucks ass and causes everyone to turn their brains off. “Enlightened Centrism” is just a meme aimed at ridiculing people who think for themselves instead of bowing to one party or the other. You need to hate half the country so that you don’t all gang up on the rich.
Student debt cannot be simply expunged through bankruptcy, it requires extra steps.
After the 2008 sub-prime mortage crisis, Hedgefunds and Banks didn’t stop with their predatory behaviour, they simply shifted it around. Student loans were a prime target for that. As well as commercial mortage backed securities (CMBS) rather than the mortage backed securities (MBS) from that bubble popping in 2008.
With COVID making work from home inevitable and CMBS becoming a huge risk factor as well as student loans possibly being forgiven, the financial elites have been rotating to survive another day until they can resume squeezing your pennies out of you again so they don’t have to go under.
Just a piece of the shit pie that the US financial markets are. It’s just a huge rackateering ring. I’d be immensely surprised if student loans were ever forgiven or university costs socialized again in the future. It’s just too lucrative to fuck young people.
Capitalism has robbed us of more than we could ever even imagine. To the point where most people don’t even realize they’ve been robbed. It’s tragic.
We live in a society where amoral, faceless corporations are more valued than actual human life. And those corporations have so much power over people, and their cognition, that the majority have been tricked into consenting to this perverted system against all of their interests. And I would love for someone to explain to me why there should ever be a distinction between the people producing something, and the people/corporations that own the means of that production. Why should these be two different groups, and why in the FUCK would the class that doesn’t do any actual goddamn work, make 300x more money? It’s fucking disgusting.
But on the other hand, they said they were going to lower taxes. And also, trans people exist, so…
Capitalism has robbed us of more than we could ever even imagine. To the point where most people don’t even realize they’ve been robbed. It’s tragic.
Capitalism isn’t perfect, but it’s the reason our standard of living is higher than ever. Every time we try anything else, millions of people die. I’m not sure how many more people need to die for people like you to accept reality. We need to improve capitalism, not turn to authoritarianism.
No, that argument is a complete lie. Technology is why we have a higher standard of living. Technological advancements have taken place in communist countries. They experience the same increases of quality of living as capitalist countries. This proves that argument false. Capitalism isn’t responsible for technology. That’s just wealthy people pushing a narrative to protect the system that consolidates wealth in their hands. Consolidated wealth at the top of the economic ladder is a well known and documented side effect of capitalism. That’s why capitalism requires strong regulations, not free market dogma.
Technological advancements have taken place in communist countries.
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rofl
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regulated capitalism is very different than communism
Formulate a response of substance or fuck off. You absolutely didn’t disprove a single thing I said. Capitalism didn’t raise the quality of living, technology did that. Capitalists steal everything thing they can, including credit for technological advances. They’ve been taking credit for work done by talented engineers and scientists for many generations.
They’ve been taking credit for work done by talented engineers and scientists for many generations.
Those engineers and scientists were also capitalists rofl. Pfizer? Capitalist. Apple? Capitalist. Ford? Capitalist. Hell the only non capitalist quality of life enhancements we’ve had come from our military.
To pretend that only capitalists have invented and improved technology is an exercise in ignorance.
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I guess the only way to get your loans forgiven is to become a Supreme Court justice and have your assigned billionaire pay them off.
Or take out a PPP loan.
Fuck my life, the one peice of hope I had for a lifeline out of poverty
You join like six people I personally know, either is a close friend or family member.
For some reason this one feels so deeply personal, that I feel motivated to vote like hell. I’m so over being held hostage by maniac Boomers who are losing their minds. We are the bigger generation now. Let’s go kick their asses!
what degree did you get? are there a lot of jobs in that field?
Wasn’t your degree supposed to be a lifeline out of poverty? How much do you make?
You planned poorly.
SCOTUS is why we can’t have nice things. Well, them and congress. And often the executive branch.
Basically we can’t have nice things.
99% of the time it’s conservatives.
I simply cannot grasp how a judicial system that’s entirely based on standing, suddenly decides that 6 random states that have 0 stake in this whole FEDERAL student loan thing have standing to sue over this forgiveness plan
It’s corruption. This isn’t a fluke, it’s that the “justice” system revolves around what’s best for the already powerful elites. It happened because the powerful wanted it to happen, the court just exists to provide the theater to control and placate the masses.
I’m against student loan forgiveness, but I agree. All evidence seems to say that the plaintiffs had no standing. The case should have been thrown out.
Although I’m happy with the result, the means are not worth the ends. This is a corrupt faction of judges ignoring and applying law where it suits their broader agenda.
Fine. I’ll bite.
Why are you against student loan forgiveness?
5 bucks says it is either a half remembered article from an economist who works for the student loan people wailing about theoretical inflation or they knew someone with a degree that doesn’t pay well and want to punish them for trying.
It is always one or the other.
It doesn’t have to even be that complicated… I think they’re just assholes
A lot of it is the “fuck you, got mine” mentality too… which goes along with the “they’re just assholes”. Graduated with no debt because they have well off parents but down play the role that possibly could have had. Obviously people who need a loan to get through college nowadays are just lazy right?
Or “you could have just gone to a cheaper college, this one’s $10,000/year tuition” ignoring that just because you’re in college doesn’t mean you don’t also need to pay rent and buy other necessities… $10,000 is a lot of money for a young adult. That’s half their yearly post-tax income if they could work full time hours at $15/hour.
Don’t forget that’s 10,000 x 4 just for undergrad
Let me preface this by saying I’m open to being wrong and that I don’t expect others to share these views. I still owe on my student loans and am not excited to continue paying them. Also, I’m listing several reasons here, so even if someone pokes holes in one or two, I’d encourage to see if there are still one or two solid reasons to be opposed to the specific method of student loan payoffs that was ruled unconstitutional.
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From the beginning, the Biden administration knew this wasn’t a constitutional way of paying off loans. Their hope was that no one would have standing to bring a suit. In general, I’m not in favor of doing unconstitutional things in the hope we can get away with it. That’s a door I don’t want the Republicans to have access to either.
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This program was initially proposed as COVID relief but does nothing to help those most impacted by COVID. It DOES however, help a huge class of potential voters. From the start this hasn’t been about helping people, it’s been about gaining votes.
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Paying off existing student loans is an expensive measure that does nothing to address what got us here in the first place. We are paying too much for degrees that don’t provide the benefits and opportunities they once did, and that’s not going to change if we cancel existing debt. All it does is out us right back here in 5-10 years.
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There’s a right way to go about this stuff. Congress should be the ones doing this, not the president. Unfortunately we have a congress that would much rather assign their work out to other people to take care of and that’s part of what has gotten us in the mess we’re in in the first place. I prefer a weak Office of the President, as we don’t always have who we want in that office. Sometimes this means things move slower than we’d like, but I’d rather that than letting whoever is president at the time take huge sweeping actions unchecked by Congress and the Judicial Branch.
Now, just to piss off anyone who wasn’t already upset with me, I think Trump is a crook and I hope he goes to jail for a long time.
Anyway, I’m not trying to start a fight, just give some reasons why I personally am happy with this SC decision.
I’m also against loan forgiveness and agree with all your points. Especially number 3. I want to add emphasis that I think forgiveness in this way will actually make the problem worse.
Yes, it would be a huge help to those who had debts forgiven. However if forgiven once, more people will be likely to go to price-gouging colleges, sign up for the huge student loans, and think there is some chance it will be forgiven later. Colleges will continue to raise tuition because people keep paying it.
We need to address the tuition cost problem. Colleges are out of control. Until we fix that, anything else will encourage them to keep going. Another way of looking at $500bn of loans forgiven… That’s $500bn in the colleges pockets that they get to keep after tripling their tuition.
I think college is a great thing and important to be accessible. We need to make it cheap enough that students can afford it and not come out of it with $80k+ in loans (I as did).
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Not true. The executive branch has the power to not collect a tax or debt. Don’t like it? Then vote for a law change. Good luck with that since this has been the case since before the US even started. In fact what is now the UK waived the land tax on the colonies. It says a lot that to even get standing they had to legally force a corporation to claim damages.
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Even if true who cares? Governments serve the population ideally. Would you rather they didn’t give people what they want so things are “fair”? Plus I seriously doubt you were protesting when the banks were bailed out, or the airlines, or the farms, or the banks, or the “small” business owners, or the insurance companies, or the car makers.
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When a patient is bleading out you don’t give them a lecture on the importance of safety. You stop the bleeding. ER doctors are not useless because they don’t address root causes.
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Again. Congress authorizes the collection of taxes and debt they do not collect. Giving permission is not the same as an order to perform.
You know I used to be a test engineer which means I was lied to about 30% of my day by PMs who wanted to push things out. A trick I figured out pretty early. When someone is telling me the truth they only need one reason. When they know that they are wrong they give me multiple weak arguments.
None of what you said is accurate or good arguments.
- You’re wrong in this instance, but a lot of people who have votes to gain have been saying this, so I understand why you think that.
The people saying that the President is allowed to wipe out student loans broadly are based on a misreading of the Higher Education Act of 1965 at 20 USC 1082(a)(6) . https://uscode.house.gov/view.xhtml?path=/prelim@title31/subtitle2/chapter13&edition=prelim
The mentioned part of that act provides the provides the president (via the Secretary of Education) with the authority to:
“…modify, compromise, waive, or release any right, title, claim, lien, or demand, however acquired, including any equity or any right of redemption.”
But that quote is taken out of the broader context of the act. The preamble to that section limits the authority to operating within the scope of the statute.
It means that Congress can authorize a loan forgiveness program, (see Public Service Loan Forgiveness, Teacher Loan Forgiveness or the Total and Permanent Disability Discharge), which then means the U.S. Secretary of Education can forgive student loans as authorized under the terms of those programs.
Without authorization by Congress of a specific loan forgiveness program, the President does not have the authority to forgive student loan debt. The Supreme Court unanimously decided that all the way back in 2001 in Whitman v. American Trucking Assns., Inc. when they put limits on what exactly Congress can delegate to the executive branch.
Also, the part of the Act referred to in the preamble is Part B of Title IV of the Higher Education Act of 1965, which applies only to loans made under the Federal Family Education Loan (FFEL) program.
There is similar language in Part E for the Federal Perkins Loan program. There is no similar language for Part D for the William D. Ford Federal Direct Loan (Direct Loan) program.
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I was protesting when the banks were bailed out. I was also protesting the business “loans” being forgiven. Attacking someone’s argument by building a strawman of who you want the others reading this to believe they are is a logical fallacy.
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My point is exactly this. We’re treating a ruptured appendix with Advil.
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See point 1.
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Doesn’t address the root problem, in fact it makes the root problem worse. It’s just a one time payout to a lucky group of millenials who happen to qualify at the moment.
Also, it primarily benefits wealthier people who got college degrees. That money would do a lot more good going to poorer people.
Missouri proved they have standing via direct injury:
“At least Missouri has standing to challenge the Secretary’s program. Article III requires a plaintiff to have suffered an injury in fact—a concrete and imminent harm to a legally protected interest, like property or money—that is fairly traceable to the challenged conduct and likely to be redressed by the lawsuit. Lujan v. Defenders of Wildlife, 504 U. S. 555, 560–561. Here, as the Government concedes, the Secretary’s plan would cost MOHELA, a nonprofit government corporation created by Missouri to participate in the student loan market, an estimated $44 million a year in fees. MOHELA is, by law and function, an instrumentality of Missouri: Labeled an “instrumentality” by the State, it was created by the State, is supervised by the State, and serves a public function. The harm to MOHELA in the performance of its public function is necessarily a direct injury to Missouri itself. The Court reached a similar conclusion 70 years ago in Arkansas v. Texas, 346 U. S. 368.”
Like 180 million women in America and they all have less rights than my dead body will and they have no standing meanwhile a corporation that didn’t want to go to court was forced to by parts of the government and they have standing for theoretical harm.
Missouri proved no such thing.
Meanwhile, last October, MOHELA admitted in a letter to Rep. Cori Bush (D-MO) that its executives “were not involved with the decision of the Missouri Attorney General’s Office to file for the preliminary injunction in federal court.” The Missouri attorney general had to obtain documents from MOHELA through state sunshine law requests in order to use them in the lawsuit. As I wrote last month, if this is successful, “the Supreme Court would be allowing the plaintiffs to win their case thanks to an unwilling conspirator.”
The internal documents from MOHELA reinforce this. They were obtained through those same state sunshine laws by the Student Borrower Protection Center.
https://prospect.org/justice/2023-06-19-student-loan-cancellation-supreme-court-mohela/
